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Breaktru Forum  |  eCigarette Forum  |  Battery  |  Topic: Battery Discussions
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Author Topic: Battery Discussions  (Read 62844 times)

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Offline asnider123

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Battery Discussions
« on: June 04, 2011, 12:00:10 AM »
Here's a question for you techy guys out there: why does my VV running at 4.7v produce tons more vape than this one running at 5.0v? Could it be battery capacity? This one uses a pair of 14250's while my VV uses a pair of 14500's.

If this is the reason, then I won't even consider trying a VV using 10440's.

Hmmmmmmmmm
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 06:04:07 PM by Breaktru Admin »

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2011, 07:58:15 PM »
Here's a question for you techy guys out there: why does my VV running at 4.7v produce tons more vape than this one running at 5.0v? Could it be battery capacity? This one uses a pair of 14250's while my VV uses a pair of 14500's.

If this is the reason, then I won't even consider trying a VV using 10440's.

Hmmmmmmmmm


Hi Alan,

I'm not a tech guy, but I've used enough crap batteries to know which ones are better!

In my own experience, the high drain ICR type batteries are far superior than the protected (Trustfire/Ultrafire) batteries.

I've got a large pile of near-dead protected ones while my lone ICR high drain is still going great and it was the very first one I bought....2 YEARS AGO!

And its a 10440 no less, came out of a 510 pass through. I modded the box and put a micro 5mm tact switch in the screw hole and mounted a the bat connector in the top.

And if you leave the USB cord in tact, it can be used as a pass through AND a bat charger.

It still vapes great after 2 years, but I've had to replace the switch a few times.

I've got a great mod idea for ya Alan! Ask Dave about it, I explained it to him in detail, might be something you'd be interested in trying?

A (2 or 3AA) box mod that'll last a week before having to recharge!

T

Offline breaktru_software

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2011, 08:15:07 PM »
I was waiting for someone to answer before posting.
Thanks T for your post.
I have experienced weaker results with the 14500 compared to the 18650. Both having the exact circuitry/regulators. So I contribute that with battery capacity (mah).
Another point that CraigHB of ECF brought out was different regulators and current.
See: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modders-forum/197870-switching-regulator-confusion.html#post3463944

Offline asnider123

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2011, 08:19:53 PM »
Thanks guys .. appreciate it. So someone explain ICRs to me .. do you use the same LiIon chargers or do you need different charging circuitry as well? Is the ICR cell exactly the length it specs out (I know protected Trustfires are about 2mm longer due to the protection circuitry)? Where is a good supplier of ICR batts? Thanks, Alan

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2011, 08:57:58 PM »
Thanks guys .. appreciate it. So someone explain ICRs to me .. do you use the same LiIon chargers or do you need different charging circuitry as well? Is the ICR cell exactly the length it specs out (I know protected Trustfires are about 2mm longer due to the protection circuitry)? Where is a good supplier of ICR batts? Thanks, Alan

Hi Alan,

I just bought (10) 10440 ICR's for $15 but I had to negotiate that price. If you'd like, I can negotiate for you OR I'll just give you the seller's e-mail and you can haggle with him yourself.

ICR's are VERY expensive here and are even harder to find. Buy from China direct and save a bundle!

Takes about a month to get to Florida, but its worth the wait.

The ICR do not have protection circuits and will charge in any Li-ion charger. I'm not an expert but i think that the only difference is that a high-drain's output is higher and more consistent than a protected.

I definitely get bigger throat hits, more consistent and long lasting voltage and overall more charges (1000) compared to Trustfires and Ultrafires, which last maybe (100) charges before they start to die.

From my experience, Ultras SUCK! Especially the protected ones. Trustfire unprotected are mediocre at best, but the ICR's are awesome! They even beat out a Soshine which has been called equal to AW's.....Pfffff!

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2011, 09:39:40 PM »
Thanks guys .. appreciate it. So someone explain ICRs to me .. do you use the same LiIon chargers or do you need different charging circuitry as well? Is the ICR cell exactly the length it specs out (I know protected Trustfires are about 2mm longer due to the protection circuitry)? Where is a good supplier of ICR batts? Thanks, Alan

Oh and BTW....if you're interested.

The Soshine brand IS a good brand and they do last substantially longer than ANY Ultra or Trust. They run like a champ when you first get them but fall dramatically after about 100 charges.

They're still far better than other brands though.

I also have Soshine's manufacturing facility e-mail, direct, if you want to try that brand as well Alan.

As of June 2010, Soshine 10440's are $1.90/ea, plus freight. But buy in bulk and a little negotiating and you can probably get them around $1/ea.....compared to $6-7/ea here, assuming you can even find somebody who has them??

The Soshine 10440's do not have protection circuits, but all other sizes have them if you choose.

PM me and I'll give you the e-mail and contact name(s) of my suppliers.

T

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2011, 09:15:33 AM »
ICR = lithium cobalt oxide (traditional) cylindrical cell
IMR = lithium manganese oxide cylindrical cell
IFR = lithium iron phosphate cylindrical cell

Lithium Cobalt LiCoO2

Lithium Cobalt is a mature, proven, industry-standard battery technology that provides long cycle life and very high energy density. The polymer design makes the cells inherently safer than "canned" construction cells that can leak acidic electrolyte fluid under abusive conditions. The cell voltage is typically 3.7 Volts. Cells using this chemistry are available from a wide range of manufacturers.

The use of Cobalt is unfortunately associated with environmental and toxic hazards.

 
Lithium Manganese LiMn2O4

Lithium Manganese provides a higher cell voltage than Cobalt based chemistries at 3.8 to 4 Volts but the energy density is about 20% less. It also provides additional benefits to Lithium-ion chemistry, including lower cost and higher temperature performance. This chemistry is more stable than Lithium Cobalt technology and thus inherently safer but the trade off is lower potential energy densities. Lithium Manganese cells are also widely available but they are not yet as common as Lithium Cobalt cells.

Manganese, unlike Cobalt, is a safe and more environmentally benign cathode material.

Manganese is also much cheaper than Cobalt, and is more abundant.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2011, 09:44:40 AM »
Check this out over at ECF: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/battery-issues/135545-whats-diff-performance-18650-2900mah-vs-18650-1600mah-high-drain.html#post2141259

But the real question on my mind is??

What's the composition of the Ultrafire and Trustfire batts and why do ICRs last considerably longer and perform better??

The mah rating of the "fire" brands is almost double to that of the ICRs, so you'd think that the higher mah rating would be better, when in my experience their far worse!

Please edjamacate me Google-Master!

 ;)

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2011, 10:26:35 AM »
That's exactly right T, Google is my Bitch

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2011, 10:34:28 AM »
That's exactly right T, Google is my Bitch
Yeah?
Well I had her before you did so you just got sloppy seconds!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 07:53:30 AM by Breaktru Admin »

Offline asnider123

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2011, 10:52:39 AM »
ICR = lithium cobalt oxide (traditional) cylindrical cell
IMR = lithium manganese oxide cylindrical cell
IFR = lithium iron phosphate cylindrical cell

Lithium Cobalt LiCoO2

Lithium Cobalt is a mature, proven, industry-standard battery technology that provides long cycle life and very high energy density. The polymer design makes the cells inherently safer than "canned" construction cells that can leak acidic electrolyte fluid under abusive conditions. The cell voltage is typically 3.7 Volts. Cells using this chemistry are available from a wide range of manufacturers.

The use of Cobalt is unfortunately associated with environmental and toxic hazards.

 
Lithium Manganese LiMn2O4

Lithium Manganese provides a higher cell voltage than Cobalt based chemistries at 3.8 to 4 Volts but the energy density is about 20% less. It also provides additional benefits to Lithium-ion chemistry, including lower cost and higher temperature performance. This chemistry is more stable than Lithium Cobalt technology and thus inherently safer but the trade off is lower potential energy densities. Lithium Manganese cells are also widely available but they are not yet as common as Lithium Cobalt cells.

Manganese, unlike Cobalt, is a safe and more environmentally benign cathode material.

Manganese is also much cheaper than Cobalt, and is more abundant.

Alright ... now I am really confused. What are Trustfire TR14500 batts anyway? The article (above) says that ICR is the "traditional" lithium batt. If they ARE ICR type cells, then it is possible it's the protection circuits that are causing the proble.

What formulation are cellphone type flat batts?

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2011, 11:00:48 AM »
Those are Lipo from I understand cuz the casing is a polymer.

But let's ask the Oracle.

Oh wise and powerful B*tch-Masta, please tell us the error of our ways?

 ;D

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2011, 12:26:58 PM »
Most of the batteries we use for PV's are referred to as Li-ion (Lithium Ion) such as the Trustfires and Ultrafires. The Cathode material determines the the type such as Cobalt, Manganese Oxide, etc. Not sure what the Trustfire or Ultrafires are made of.

Li?ion batteries come in many varieties but all have one thing in common — the catchword “lithium-ion.” Although strikingly similar at first glance, these batteries vary in performance, and the choice of cathode materials gives them their unique personality.

Common cathode materials are Lithium Cobalt Oxide (or Lithium Cobaltate), Lithium Manganese Oxide (also known as spinel or Lithium Manganate), Lithium Iron Phosphate, as well as Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt (or NMC)*** and Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (or NCA). All these materials possess a theoretical specific energy with given limits. (Lithium-ion has a theoretically capacity of about 2,000kWh. This is more than 10 times the specific energy of a commercial Li-ion battery.)


From what I've read its all about the battery's C rating which is apparently to do with the maximum rate of discharge.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2011, 12:42:48 PM »

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2011, 12:47:23 PM »
Just googled for Trustfire TR18650 batteries and found this supplier who provides specs:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/802068/200293141-423888492/Trustfire-TR18650-3-7V-Protected-Li-ion-battery.html

They say that Trustfires are Lithium Cobalt Oxide formulation (according to your previous post these are ICR batteries. I guess the difference is that the TR18650 has a protection circuit.

Ultrafire 18650's are
Quote
Ultrafire 18650 Lion batteries
They are 3.7V Lithium Cobalt Oxide cells, they are probably similar to other cells of this type in that charging rate should not exceed 1C, discharge rate should not exceed 2C, Charge should be Constant Current to 4.20V, then Constant Voltage at 4.20V till charge rate drops to ~0.1C and then terminated. Discharge should be terminated at ~3.0V under a load, rebounding ideally to ~3.5-3.6V minimum open circuit.

Again, it must be the protection circuit that makes the difference ???

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2011, 12:53:41 PM »
Most of the batteries we use for PV's are referred to as Li-ion (Lithium Ion) such as the Trustfires and Ultrafires. The Cathode material determines the the type such as Cobalt, Manganese Oxide, etc. Not sure what the Trustfire or Ultrafires are made of.

Li?ion batteries come in many varieties but all have one thing in common — the catchword “lithium-ion.” Although strikingly similar at first glance, these batteries vary in performance, and the choice of cathode materials gives them their unique personality.

Common cathode materials are Lithium Cobalt Oxide (or Lithium Cobaltate), Lithium Manganese Oxide (also known as spinel or Lithium Manganate), Lithium Iron Phosphate, as well as Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt (or NMC)*** and Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (or NCA). All these materials possess a theoretical specific energy with given limits. (Lithium-ion has a theoretically capacity of about 2,000kWh. This is more than 10 times the specific energy of a commercial Li-ion battery.)


From what I've read its all about the battery's C rating which is apparently to do with the maximum rate of discharge.

YUP!

They're separated by colors (blue, green, yellow, purple, etc..)

But there's still a quality issue that's definitely got ME confused.

And after re-reading your identification paragraph for ICRs, its states that the polymer casing (cellphone flat batts) are safer than the cylindrical cells.

But is that because the cellphone batts have protection circuits built in or because of their chemistry??

Inquiring minds would like to know.....???
 

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2011, 12:58:54 PM »
Just googled for Trustfire TR18650 batteries and found this supplier who provides specs:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/802068/200293141-423888492/Trustfire-TR18650-3-7V-Protected-Li-ion-battery.html

They say that Trustfires are Lithium Cobalt Oxide formulation (according to your previous post these are ICR batteries. I guess the difference is that the TR18650 has a protection circuit.

Ultrafire 18650's are
Again, it must be the protection circuit that makes the difference ???

Well that's good to know....

Then it comes down to build quality, cuz the Trustfires that I've used don't have protection circuits. And they're junk compared to generic "printed" ICRs and the generic capacities are more accurate than name brands.

All of the Soshines I've used are also unprotected and are significantly better than the "fire" brands as well.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2011, 01:25:59 PM »
Well that's good to know....

Then it comes down to build quality, cuz the Trustfires that I've used don't have protection circuits. And they're junk compared to generic "printed" ICRs and the generic capacities are more accurate than name brands.

All of the Soshines I've used are also unprotected and are significantly better than the "fire" brands as well.

Here's a link to show you my point:

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=trustfire+18650&_sacat=0&_odkw=TR18650+3.7V&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

These are not all protected cells. The ones that are say they are. But as you can see, their mah ratings very greatly!

And they're all the same brand name and the same model number 18650.

Something else just occurred to me that could affect their performance.

THEIR SHELF-LIFE!

I've bought Ultrafire protected from DealX and they were junk, literally. But maybe I got the decade-old, dusty relics?? Over ones that were made last week from the factory?

Maybe its why the generic ICRs that I've used are so great, cuz they're brand new from the factory??

In either case, its IMO, to stay away from the "fire" brands as they're too inconsistent in their performance over known superior brands or factory new ones.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2011, 03:05:34 PM »
Be aware that some solid color batteries are bootlegs. Look for the manufactures name or LOGO. Also, some bootlegged batts are missing the protection circuit. Look for a protrusion of a metal strip under the labeling going down the side of the batt from Neg to Pos.
Even if it says trustfire or ultrafire, look for the manufacturer.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2011, 04:44:13 PM »
Be aware that some solid color batteries are bootlegs. Look for the manufactures name or LOGO. Also, some bootlegged batts are missing the protection circuit. Look for a protrusion of a metal strip under the labeling going down the side of the batt from Neg to Pos.
Even if it says trustfire or ultrafire, look for the manufacturer.

To be honest Dave, I've never seen a printed "ICR" with a manufacturers name, with or without a PCB.

The one that came out of my 510 pass through is not protected, but it put 20 or so Trustfires to SHAME!

They kick the crap out of ALL "fire" brands, IMO, by far! There's no comparison really.

Not all Li-ions have PCB's, that's just an option.

Soshine makes really great cells with or without PCB's, but the printed ICR beat Soshine too. (So far anyway.)

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2011, 08:12:21 PM »
From what I have read on other forums, AW seems to have the best batteries.
But much more expensive. I'd rather buy 2 Trustfires which I have seem to have good luck with.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2011, 08:43:35 PM »
From what I have read on other forums, AW seems to have the best batteries.
But much more expensive. I'd rather buy 2 Trustfires which I have seem to have good luck with.

What other brands or non-brands are you comparing your Trustfire to? Which ones were bad luck for you?

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2011, 03:39:27 PM »
The elite battery for those with deep pockets and some great info for everyone:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?230876-AW-s-LiIon-Batteries-Sales-Thread-*Part-12*

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2011, 04:34:54 PM »
The elite battery for those with deep pockets and some great info for everyone:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?230876-AW-s-LiIon-Batteries-Sales-Thread-*Part-12*

Wow, that's one nice battery, your right about deep pockets. $17.95 each.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2011, 11:37:30 PM »
Hi Times

Just got a mod that came with 2 Joye ICR 10440P protected batteries. Are these the batts you said you liked?

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2011, 06:32:17 PM »
Hi Times

Just got a mod that came with 2 Joye ICR 10440P protected batteries. Are these the batts you said you liked?


NOPE!

Never heard of a Joye branded lithium.

The ICR that has outlasted every Trustfire I own is a non-protected 10440, in a light blue casing, that came out of a Joye 510 pass through a couple of years ago.

Single cell protected batteries, at least in my experience, SUCK A**!

And since I only use a 1-cell mod, there's considerably less danger over a multi-cell non-protected config.

It's the "packs" that really should be protected, at least that's what I've read.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2011, 03:12:37 AM »
Hi Times....

The batts came in a Janty Stick V3 kit, directly from the factory, I am wondering if Janty and Joye are perhaps the same company ??? And I agree, I never heard of Joye batteries, I am sure they are rebranded or OEM batts. They are blue if that helps :)

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2011, 09:41:56 AM »
Revisiting this thread again and reading the O.P., I come to agree more with my reply #2, post #3. CraigHB and CapCad's view that the regulator has more to do with lack of performance than the battery source. That is if the batt is a 14500 or bigger.

I did some hard core amp testing with the 04050c and 08100w regulator and find that the 08100w can put out higher current at the same voltage and atty resistance. I can only imagine how a linear regulator would under perform being that I don't have one to test.

I made this adapter to measure amperage between load and output:
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 12:18:48 PM by Breaktru Admin »

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2011, 04:39:54 AM »
Wouldn't that be because the 04050c is designed to boost (1) cell though?

Are you saying that you tested both using the same current amount, like (1) cell at 2800 mah and (2) cells at 1400 mah each?

And that the 08100w had a higher current output?

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2011, 07:10:26 AM »
Wouldn't that be because the 04050c is designed to boost (1) cell though?

Are you saying that you tested both using the same current amount, like (1) cell at 2800 mah and (2) cells at 1400 mah each?

And that the 08100w had a higher current output?

04050c with 1x 18650, 3000mah and a 2400mah
08100w with 2x 18350's, 1200mah in series (total = 1200mah)

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/197870-switching-regulator-confusion.html
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 07:20:11 AM by Breaktru Admin »

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2011, 12:09:00 PM »
Power rating for rechargeables

The critical factor for ecig mod use is the C rating (discharge current) in amps. The minimum possible value for safe and effective ecig use is 1 amp (= 1000mA) although ideally it needs to be higher. The ideal rating is 2.5A (2500mA) or better as an atomizer usually draws 1A to 2.5A.

Chart of C ratings vs size
Assume 1C for generic Li-ion unless otherwise noted

1.5C for ultra/sure/trust/-fire
2C    for AW ICR (Li-ion)
3C    for BDL 10440 IMR (Li-Mn)
5C    for BDL 14500 IMR (Li-Mn)
8C    for AW 14500 and 16340 IMR (Li-Mn)
10C  for AW 18650 IMR (Li-Mn)
10C  for AW LiFePO4
Tenergy LiFePO4 (small cells) - <0.55A (not suitable for ecig use)

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2011, 01:17:47 PM »
For the boost circuit mods I recommend using an AW IMR battery. The IMR's are "C" rated as 10C which means that they can provide more amperage.

To get the amps from the C rating, just multiply the capacity of the battery in mah by the C rating then divide by 1000.

The importance of C values is with discharge rate. Say your battery has a 15C discharge rating, and is a 3600mAh – do the basic maths. 3.6 amps x 15C = 54 amps. This means the battery can deliver 54 amps.

1C = 1 x Capacity

These two batteries are 14500's:

A Trustfire 2400mah is 1.5C
1.5C = 1 x 2400mah or 2.4Ah __ 2.4 amps x 1.5C = 3.6 amps
Trustfire is capable of a 3.6 amps discharge rate

An AW IMR 600mah is 8C
8C = 1 x 600mah or 0.600Ah __ 0.600 x 8C = 4.8 amps
IMR is capable of a 4.8 amp discharge rate
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 09:36:39 AM by Breaktru »

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2011, 05:58:22 AM »
That's one thing really nice about the series dual cell switching mods, you don't need a high drain battery.  The problem with a dual cell mod is that it's more involved to do one with non-removable cells.  I really like being able to just plug-in to charge and that's easy to incorporate with a single cell.  Since the high drain round cells seem to be somewhat lacking in charge capacity, I've been using the LiPo flat cells.

I'm currently building a mod with this one.  Check out the price!!!  Then check out the max drain!!!  This cell has virtually no voltage sag (>10 milli-ohms DCR).  The charge density by volume is about the same as an IMR round cell, but it's flat which is highly conducive for mounting on a PCB.  If you're filling a rectangular enclosure with a rectangular battery, you come out ahead capacity wise.

One cautionary note, high drain Li-Ion batts are not protected so if you use them, you need to build-in reliable short circuit protection, especially for the LiPos.  With less than 10m DCR, the battery I linked to can dump over 400 Amps when shorted at the terminals.  That's pretty much like shorting a car battery with a monkey wrench.  It could do some serious damage.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2011, 09:59:16 AM »
Nice battery Craig. Doing the math I see that that batt is 44 amps.. Holy mackerel! Keep that at of the hands of a novice. They can kill them selves.  :laughing:
It would be the best batt for the boost mod, just that the length is kinda long. The box would probably be limited to the Darwin look, I imagine.
Very nice post craig.. thanks

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2011, 10:45:33 AM »
That's one thing really nice about the series dual cell switching mods, you don't need a high drain battery.  The problem with a dual cell mod is that it's more involved to do one with non-removable cells.  I really like being able to just plug-in to charge and that's easy to incorporate with a single cell.  Since the high drain round cells seem to be somewhat lacking in charge capacity, I've been using the LiPo flat cells.

I'm currently building a mod with this one.  Check out the price!!!  Then check out the max drain!!!  This cell has virtually no voltage sag (>10 milli-ohms DCR).  The charge density by volume is about the same as an IMR round cell, but it's flat which is highly conducive for mounting on a PCB.  If you're filling a rectangular enclosure with a rectangular battery, you come out ahead capacity wise.

One cautionary note, high drain Li-Ion batts are not protected so if you use them, you need to build-in reliable short circuit protection, especially for the LiPos.  With less than 10m DCR, the battery I linked to can dump over 400 Amps when shorted at the terminals.  That's pretty much like shorting a car battery with a monkey wrench.  It could do some serious damage.

That looks like the ultimate in batteries at 20C rating. and a cheap price. I would love to put one in a boost mod. But like Dansen said it's quite long. I'm sure if I google I can find one that's shorter w/ a deeper size.
The only other thing is putting in a usb charger being the battery is not removable.
I have been asked a few times for info on USB and charging a two battery setup circuit. I never got into USB being that I prefer to remove batteries, pop them in a charger and pop in fresh ones. With this type of battery you linked, I think I will consider it at some point.
Any recharging circuits advise for a double and even single battery would be of interest to member modders, I'm sure. If you would like to post one perhaps you can start a USB charging thread.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2011, 03:01:03 PM »
I do know that IMR's are UNprotected due to their chemical make up the are suppose to be safe but... your right Craig about the possibility of a short circuit and some protection, I guess like a fuse? is in order.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2011, 05:34:00 PM »
I highly recommend adding a PTC fuse in-line with any unprotected battery.  They're cheap, they have low DCR (if you pick the right one) and they work reliably.  I've crash tested them many times.  It's a  great invention and relatively new too, much younger than IC chips.  They are available in both surface mount and leaded.  I use these.

Using that 2200mAh 20C battery does result in a fairly long mod, but you can never achieve perfection.  It's thin though, only 8mm, but yes, it's Darwin-esque.  However, there is this one, but it's only 1000mAh.

I've already decided that if I ever build a series dual cell mod, I'm going to use one of these chargers with a dedicated 3 pin connector built into the mod.   On my single cell mods, I build in the Microchip MCP73833-FCI/MF on a PCB with a USB connector.

It's possible to incorporate USB charging into a dual cell mod and I've thought of a way to do it, but it's just too convoluted.  You know the old KISS principle.  I won't do it or recommend it because it just complicates things too much.  I'd rather just use a single cell booster and that's what I've been doing.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 05:54:32 PM by CraigHB »

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2011, 05:58:35 PM »
The link to the PTC fuse, Is that for a single 3.7v battery? I'm confuse with the spec of 3.5Amps (minimum required for ON state)
and the fault current rating of 50

Those 1000mah batteries would be nice paralleled for a 2000mah total mah.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2011, 09:49:53 PM »
I have been using IMR's in single battery mods but hate the short life. I would like to try this one below.
Any comments about them?


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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2011, 12:16:58 PM »
I have been using IMR's in single battery mods but hate the short life. I would like to try this one below.  Any comments about them?

I understand what you're saying about that.  I have a small mechanical mod that takes an IMR 14500 and it doesn't run very long on a charge.  The ones you show are probably ok for a simple mod using a standard resistance atomizer, but if you try to run a low resistance atomizer or a booster, you'll likely trip the protection.  You could run two in parallel to get max drain up to 3A, but you could also do that with two IMR 14500s to double the run time.

There is one safety issue with parallel cells, but it's not a big deal.  You just need to make sure they have exactly the same charge when you first connect them. It's because you can get big equalization currents if they differ by even a couple tenths of a volt.  The protected ones will just trip the protection, but unprotected cells have no bound on equalization currents.

The link to the PTC fuse, Is that for a single 3.7v battery? I'm confuse with the spec of 3.5Amps (minimum required for ON state) and the fault current rating of 50.

The ratings can be a little misleading.  Through bench testing, I've found the hold current is more realistically a conservative rating that guarantees an infinite hold.  If you look at the data sheet, you'll see the time it takes to trip is a function of fault current.  It can range anywhere from minutes to small fractions of a second depending on the magnitude of the fault.  In reality, they just barely start to trip around 50% over the hold current.  Since an e-cig is never on very long, you can add at least 50% to the hold current on those. 

When PTC fuses trip, they don't actually open the circuit, they increase in resistance at a rate dependant on fault current until they get to a certain point.  Usually, they still draw a few tenths of an Amp when fully tripped.  So, in a tripped state, they will dissipate around a Watt.

The 50A rating represents the limit on surge current.  In other words, how much they can withstand until they've tripped.

With the 2200mAh 20C LiPo, I'm actually running two fuses in parallel for a couple reasons.  For one, the inrush current for a hard atomizer short on my mod is ~80A since there's 50 milliohms resistance in the whole circuit.  Two fuses in parallel gives me an inrush capacity of 100A.  Also, I measured about 10 milliohms on that particular fuse.  With two in parallel, it cuts resistance in half reducing power loss and increasing efficiency.  Since the battery can surge well over 44A without issue, it can trip both fuses without putting stress on it.  Surge ratings are typcially double the continuous rating, it's a fairly safe assumption if not specified.

Quote
Those 1000mah batteries would be nice paralleled for a 2000mah total mah.

Running two of those 1000mAh LiPos would be a good way to go.  It would only be 12mm thick and you'd get a reasonable capacity.  In my case, I mount the cell on the back side of a PCB that covers the same area so I need the long thin shape.

Offline asnider123

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2011, 06:54:57 PM »
OK, I am a little confused about the whole protected thing. It seems to me that protected batteries are choked down and don't vape as well as those without protection circuits. I understand that the protection circuit is supposed to keep it from being overcharged and from it going critical, but what does critical mean? Does it mean a release of gasses? If the PV is properly vented out the bottom does this not prevent a catastrophe?

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2011, 12:49:18 AM »
The protection PCB does result in a small reduction in performance since you are adding circuitry and some amount of resistance, but it's probably not anything you would notice outright when vaping.   

What makes more of a difference is the voltage sag between a protected and high drain battery.  Every component of a circuit has some resistance to current flow, even batteries.  A high drain battery delivers more current because it has less internal resistance or DCR.  As a result, there is less voltage sag.  That's the drop in delivered voltage due to circuit resistance on the electrical path to and from the atomizer, including the resistance of the battery itself.  Any battery will sag some amount when loaded.  How much it sags depends on current demand and its DCR.  High drain LiPo cells have the lowest DCR of any Li-Ion, a little less than a lead-acid car battery (ultra-low).  That's followed by the round IMR cells and then the ICO cells which are the more common protected ones.  3.2V or LiFePO4 Li-Ions have the highest DCR of the Li-Ion chemistries.

Protection PCBs for Li-Ions provide over-current protection, over-discharge protection, and over-charge protection.  The most important one from a safety standpoint is over-current protection since the mod is probably going to be close to your face when you need it.  Since energy released is proportional to current flow and short circuit current flow depends on a battery's DCR, shorting a high drain LiPo is literally explosive.  As a comparison, an Alkaline AA battery has around a fifth of an Ohm DCR.  A direct short at the terminals results in a current flow a little over 7 Amps.  A high drain LiPo has an internal resistance around a hundredth of an Ohm.  A direct short at the terminals results in a current flow over 400 Amps!  This represents a signifcant amount of power, over 1600 Watts if the battery is fully charged.

A well vented enclosure is not the only concern for a high drain Li-Ion battery.  It will super heat and expand if hard shorted and possibly cause the enclosure to burst even if it's well vented.  IMR round cells are less volatile than high drain LiPo cells since they have higher internal resistance, but they can still release a considerable amount of energy when shorted.  Definitely enough to take seriously. 

People have inadvertantly shorted the IMR batteries without them doing anything crazy.  Often, just get really hot and expand some amount, but it also depends on the short.  A hard short at the terminals is going to be more severe than a partially shorted atomizer due to the difference in resistance.  In any case, I don't think it's anywhere near worth the risk to neglect protecting them.  Especially when it's simply a matter of putting a PTC fuse inline.  I've also heard of fuse-able battery springs which may be sufficient for use in a round "all mechanical" mod, but I know little about those.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2011, 12:55:08 AM »
I once shorted a battery in a boxmod I was wiring. The battery got warm and the neg spring in the box shrunk flat, breaking the circuit. Is that what you mean by a fusable spring?

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2011, 11:37:31 AM »
Question:
Can I connect (2) Turnigy 1000mAh 1S 20C Lipoly (Single Cell) in parallel and Charge in parallel with a USB charging circuit?

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2011, 11:44:02 AM »
I once shorted a battery in a boxmod I was wiring. The battery got warm and the neg spring in the box shrunk flat, breaking the circuit. Is that what you mean by a fusable spring?

Like I say, I don't know much about them, but temperature sensitive springs like that are pretty common, like the ones you see in cooling system thermostats.  I guess that would be how they work.   Sounds reasonable to me.

Question: Can I connect (2) Turnigy 1000mAh 1S 20C Lipoly (Single Cell) in parallel and Charge in parallel with a USB charging circuit?

I dont' see why not.  Should work just fine with a USB charger.  I use the USB charger chips with the LiPos.  No issues, they terminate at 4.2V just like the round cells.

Offline asnider123

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2011, 11:59:42 AM »
Like I say, I don't know much about them, but temperature sensitive springs like that are pretty common, like the ones you see in cooling system thermostats.  I guess that would be how they work.   Sounds reasonable to me.


Yup, the spring went flat, no longer usable, but at least it kept a catastrophic breakdown .. pretty neat actually.

Is it possible to use a little mini 3a glass fuse in a mod? They are cheap and readily available locally.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2011, 12:20:34 PM »
I'm sure you can.  You could also use an automotive blade fuse if you want.  Slo-Blo fuses are fine.  It actually takes an amount of time for a battery to get damaged by an over-current condition.  Just like any conductor, they heat up at some rate until they breakdown.

Having caused many shorts in building various electronics projects, I've always found it strange the way a short will burn the weakest section of a conductor and leave the rest undamaged.  Sort of like the way a tornado will damage one house and leave the ones next to it untouched.

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Re: Battery Discussions
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2011, 01:09:39 PM »
Thanks Craig.
I plan on using this:
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10217


Breaktru Forum  |  eCigarette Forum  |  Battery  |  Topic: Battery Discussions
 

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