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Offline c1truz

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Custom boost mod....the begining
« on: January 03, 2014, 08:29:01 PM »
Just  got the boards in for my custom boost circuit.  I recieved 3 boards but unfortunately only have the parts for one.  So if I screw up I will have to wait for more parts.  :(.   I know the caps may be excessive for a mod but I had room so I put them For now.  This is just a test board.  I screwed up and used 0402 resistors.   Man they are small.  I wont do that again.  Well ima get started putting or trying to put this thing together.  Wish me luck! 

Online Breaktru

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2014, 09:04:28 PM »
Cool. Good luck with it. We'll be watching your progress  :popcorn:

Offline warlordxxx

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2014, 09:27:35 PM »
Good work - I for one can't wait to see the outcome - I've been meaning to get a full circuit on a board since I started - Any lead on a place to get it done ?

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2014, 10:30:22 PM »
Well im mostly done.  I WILL NOT  do 0402 again lol.  I have some clean up to do tomorrow with the soldering and hopefully have time to blow it up.....I mean test it.   :)

Offline Visus

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2014, 12:11:40 AM »
Jelly jealous

Sweetness  :popcorn:

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2014, 07:17:28 AM »
 :rockin smiley: Super soldering work c1truz. Turned out well

Offline methos

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2014, 07:24:15 AM »
Sweet!!!!! 

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2014, 05:57:20 PM »
Looks really good.  Nice job.  Hope everything performs as designed. 

Don't like to hear that about the 0402 parts.  I had to drop from 0603 to 0402 for my latest board since it has a lot more stuff on it.  I know it's going to be a real PITA to work with those, but I think I'm ready for it.

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2014, 07:14:54 PM »
Ya I ended up having to use paste for them.  You have a lot more experience and prob better equiped to do them than me.  They are so small u can barely  see them.  About the size of a big grain of sand.    I lost a few when they went flying across the room out of my tweezers lol.  When designing they looked bigger in eagle.  Well everything does.  Ive checked all connections and everything seems good.  Ill hook it up ton and see if it works.   If not back to the drawing board.  Fingers crossed :)

Offline Visus

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2014, 07:46:13 PM »
If the 402 series are what they use in an ego holy cow awesome job
they are really small and mind boggling they can do what they do at that size..

If they are smaller than ego resistors   whoa

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2014, 08:35:12 PM »
Idk whats in an ego but this is on my pointer finger.

Offline methos

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2014, 08:49:55 PM »
Holy sheet!! I would go cross eyed trying to mount that!!!

Offline Visus

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2014, 09:35:31 PM »
Its so small its invisible,
on your board I scanned  for them and can only find one and you took a great picture btw
yeah, thats the same series in an ego

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2014, 09:54:14 PM »
There is 5 on there.  One is crooked.  I should redo it but I really dont want to :(.   I had plenty of room to use bigger.  I don't remember why I used them now but if I ever have to use them I know I can now.  I will prob use them on the complete board when I design it if I used the correct ones since I always buy extras when you can buy 2 for 17 cents or 10 for 20. 

Offline methos

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2014, 10:04:33 PM »
I had to blow up the pic before you populated it to find all 5. Now I can see them on the populated board. Very nice work getting those on there. I don't know if I could of done that without the Hubble telescope....LoL

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2014, 10:46:46 PM »
Wowee thats small. Are you sure it's not a crumb?

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 12:17:47 PM »
Well I hooked it all up last night.  All I got was 4.1v out.  I went back over my design and realized I desingned the board wrong.  The digital pot  was supposed to be on r2 instead of r1.  I pulled r2 off the board.  Cut a few traces.  Relocated r2 to the bottom of the board making it r1.  Ran a trace wire from the via on that trace to the switcher and here are my results. 


Low voltage with full battery:  4.10v.
High voltage: 6.30v


No load testing yet.  Ill do that later.  Board is designed for 8amps up to 6v but we will see what it cuts out at.  I also have to fihure out battery draw at that level.  Ill push the board but dont want to push batteries.    Also have to hook up a display and the current sense amplifier.   So will be a few days of testing.  Yay :(

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2014, 12:45:55 PM »
Well the output range is good. Yeah I had to cut a trace myself and run a jumper too on my first prototype board.
Looking forward to your load testing. Nice going so far

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2014, 12:48:50 PM »
Output max is spot on to what I calculated.  I can easily increase or decrease it with a single resistor.  May push it to 6.5 but idk if ill ever even use it that high. 

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2014, 03:59:20 PM »
The digital pot  was supposed to be on r2 instead of r1.  I pulled r2 off the board.  Cut a few traces.  Relocated r2 to the bottom of the board making it r1.

Don't feel too bad about that, I've designed a few "coasters" in my time.  You kind of have to expect errors every now and then.  It's super frustrating to get errors, but you have to have computer accuracy to design a board perfectly the first time.  I'm always cringing when I hit the "send" button on new designs.

I probably proof my boards at least three times.  I just finshed proof number 1 on the board I'm getting ready to send.  Need to do a couple more, but then if there's an error in my schematic it doesn't matter, the error will be in the board too.

Yeah, parts sure look a lot bigger when you're designing the boards in the drawing software.  I can work with the 0603 parts comfortably at 10x mag, but the 0402 parts are definitely going to be my limit, for sure, for sure.

Oh, BTW, reflow is the "proper" way to assemble PCBs.  I'm old school in that I hand solder everything with an iron.  Just can't seem to get over that reflow hump.  Problem is, I've been doing electronics since the early days of soild state and can't seem to part with my iron.


« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 04:25:55 PM by CraigHB »

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2014, 05:09:00 PM »
I flowed this board and cleaned up with the iron.  I tried soldering the 0402 first then said forget it and used paste.  The screw up was in my schematic.  I caculated the r1 and r2 one day and a few days later added it to the schematic thinking I knew what they were.  Well I did know but just reversed them.  Will double check next time.  Good thing is....this is only a test for a full board anyway.  Cutting my cost on a screw up like that on a bigger board.   Didnt really loose anything since it was fixable though. 

Now to just figure out the calibration of the current sense amplifier and a few days of programming then ill fix the design and if everything checks out ill get the whole boatd ordered with charger and mcu intergrated. 

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2014, 01:21:18 PM »
I was going through eagle today and adding parts for the full mod just seeing what all I will need.  Man this board looks simple compared to all the thing i have to add to a "full" board.  Looks like a cluster you know what trying to fit all of it on an 89 x 35 pcb with corners cut out.   ugh lol

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2014, 01:23:43 PM »
not to mention an 18650 crammed in there too........

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2014, 01:49:46 PM »
So you're going to put everything on the one board like the current sensor and the ATMega328p chip

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2014, 01:56:33 PM »
I'm trying to fit everything on a board that size(current sense, mcu, boost circuit, display connector, battery, charger).  May have to go up a box size even though I wanted to stay on the small side.  Its  a ... um really tight fit.   Not to mention running the traces is mind boggling.   raged:

Offline Visus

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2014, 02:16:17 PM »
Fit:
Its all about your equipments


Fitting an ecig mod on the tip of our finger or a toothpick thats vv vw not to far off that does sub ohm lol...

http://phys.org/news/2014-01-ultra-flexible-chip-hair.html


Offline CraigHB

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2014, 04:03:19 PM »
That's when the challenge comes, fitting all that stuff on a small board.  The features themselves are not particularly hard to design, but putting them in a small package is where it gets difficult.  I have a number of design iterations under my belt now and I've progressively made things smaller.  You get better at it the more you do it. 

There's talk of things going to the quantum level with current flows in terms of single columns of electrons, but what comes with small stuff is small output.  So, you may be able to get the logic circuits down to a very tiny size, but the power circuits are always going to be somewhat large in order to handle the big currents.  There's no way around that.

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2014, 05:49:43 PM »
Once they learn how to use that graphene cheaply and fix the bandgap problem the current will come up

The dictionary word checker doesn't even know it exists yet.  :laughing2:

A sheet of material so thin you need coloring to see and it would take an elephant standing on a pencil to make a small hole in it..

Its a coming fast..

 :Thinking:

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2014, 02:15:32 PM »
Still, it's a matter of substrate resistance.  It's not paritcularly low and since current means heat, you need an amount of material to support the current flow.  If may be possible to do high currents using that material, but it's not going to be particularly small.  Could be quite thin though.

Offline Visus

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 06:28:27 PM »


Craig a superconductor is also out there, its so top secret,  it is made of crystals and can hold over 1000+ amps in thinner than hair crystals..
It was discovered and made by a young girl in India..   

Its just like the new charging systems that suoercapacitor charge in secs..  Industry is saying you can literally charge your electric cars battery to full capacity in 3 secs.    Another new word that is not in dictionary yet.. "suoercapacitor" is  not a misspell.  Built by a young lady in Cali..


Here in Gilman Illinois they are building a free energy unit supposed to supply  a 30kw grid..
http://www.rarenergia.com.br/
https://www.facebook.com/FreeEnergyTruth?fref=ts

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2014, 01:38:42 PM »
I hear rumors all the time of these great new technologies that never seem to surface.  The superconductor ones have been around for decades.  I never believe any of this stuff until it hits the shelves.  Claims in articles on the internet or in the news media don't mean a thing.

Being the capitalistic society we live in, nobody invents anything without some kind of financial motivation.  If someone invented something revolutionary like that, they would more likely target the consumer market.  There's a lot more money in that than what a government will pay you.

That's just my opinion.   There may be "secret" technologies that governments keep to themselves, but they always end up in the consumer market at some point, usually sooner than later.  Kind of like the cliche, pictures or it didn't happen.  In this case, on the shelves or it didn't happen.

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2014, 02:34:51 PM »
@Craig

Some invents I am aware of, and they do  exist,  destroy job markets so efficiently they can be considered almost a terrorist action. 
One massive leg  of industry is being put to the test now "free energy.."   I most certainly do know many patents lay on the shelves that would anxious you, cause of your electronics genius.  freaked_out:


Like gorilla glass he invented that glass in the 60's  it wasn't used until a year before he dies, he lives poor dies an uber wealthy inventor for cell phone glass but almost 50 yrs to hit shelves.  Yeah your right it doesn't exist then until it does... lol




 ;cheers;

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2014, 03:33:47 PM »
One invention I think is really cool that has hit the shelves is transparent LCDs, a perfectly clear sheet of glass that displays an image when active.  Those are really cool, pretty much like the stuff made up in movies.  They're used a lot in gaming machines currently, but there's some interesting consumer products that are using them.

Offline kortt

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2014, 03:36:20 PM »
You could use one of these for hand soldering tiny components. 
http://www.amazon.com/Acrobat-19-LCD-Video-Magnifier/dp/B002C7A18A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389299480&sr=8-1&keywords=acrobat+lcd

I use this model daily for regular living with a visual disability but I've had a lot of friends who say they wished they had one for doing tasks involving very small parts etc.  They are a bit pricey but for someone dealing with very tiny components all the time I bet it would be worth it.

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2014, 09:44:38 AM »
Well after literally 36 hours of working on board design(i'm not very good).  I have a complete board designed.  I'm going to be triple checking it before I send it to fab.  The original design of the boost circuit was 2" x 1.7".  That included current sense resistor and amplifier.  The new board design will add MCU, programming pins, connections for switches, connection for display, 18650 connections, charger, usb port, 3.3v regulator for display,  various resistors and capacitors.   The size of the new board is 1.38" x 3.5".    I added a lot in the 1.5 inch area increase.  I have everything planed out so that the digital components are all but seperated from the boost circuit.   


One thing I do not like is the fact that I will need 2 sets of programming pins.  One for the bootloader and one for the FTDI.  I'm going to look into other ways of programming since that takes up double the board space.  I'm going to research some 6 pin connectors also to see if i can find some that will be smaller than the .1" standard ones I have on there now.  I'm sure they are out there, I just dont know what to look for.

Also with space requirments I'm going to have to go with another OLED display.  I haven't found anything else that will fit AND runs of 3.3v AND doesn't require 11 capacitors and a 30pin zif connector.  I have a few displays OTW from china but they are all 5v.  Plan was to use them in my next mod design.  A buck controller.  Which the breakout board for the module should be in this weekend.  Ill post on that when it comes in.


Depth is really limited when using an 18650 battery.  I was looking into Lipo cells for this mod but I would then loose space length wise unless I used a 1000mah cell which I personally don't think will be enough.   


The buck mod will be a bigger mod than this one but I expect that with it have 2 cells.   For this I'm trying a few premade modules.  The first I have on hand and I am just waiting on the breakout board for it.  It's a GE PDT012A0X43-SRZ.  Its rated at 5.5v 12A 60watts.  I never vape over 5v so the 5.5 doesn't bother me.   The module uses pmbus so if i can get all that bit banging figured out it will have current sense, voltage adjust, vin, vout, and a bunch of other things all in a 12.2 x 12.2 x 8.5 package.     Can't really beat that.  Hell a current sense resistor takes up about 4 x 8mm by itself.    I will make another post when/if i get it figured out. 


Side note: 1 year old AW IMR batteries are not very good under load.   Anyone got any suggestions on 18650 batteries other than the 30A sony ones?  Or are those about the best u can get atm?

I'll also have one or two extra breakout boards(not the module) for the GE module if I designed them and they were fabbed correctly.  If anyone would like one let me know. Only thing is I'd like to give them to someone using a MCU.  I won't be able to help with the interfacing until I figure it out but 2 -3 brains are better than 1.   They will just be laying around anyway.  They are .85 x .82 inches each.

 

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2014, 10:18:14 AM »

One thing I do not like is the fact that I will need 2 sets of programming pins.  One for the bootloader and one for the FTDI.  I'm going to look into other ways of programming since that takes up double the board space.  I'm going to research some 6 pin connectors also to see if i can find some that will be smaller than the .1" standard ones I have on there now.  I'm sure they are out there, I just dont know what to look for.   
 

Nice going. Excellent  :rockin smiley:

Just my 2 cents: I use a DIP Socket for my chip so I can remove it and program it on a test board that also has a Dip Socket. This way I don't have to add the programing pins on my mod board.

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2014, 10:45:58 AM »
Do you program them with another arduino or do you have a programmer?

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2014, 10:50:34 AM »
Oh...and ya that would work for the socket.  Unfortunately I don't have room for the pdip chip on this one.  I'm going to try my luck with a TQFP32.    I will consider it on the buck controller though :);  All the things running through my head and I didn't even think of it.  My adhd brain at its finest. 

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2014, 01:27:23 PM »
Do you program them with another arduino or do you have a programmer?

I meant upload the code rather then programmed. opps.
Don't have a programmer. I buy the chip with the bootloader installed. A buck or two more in cost.

My test board is something like this only a lot smaller.................
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:01:09 PM by Breaktru »

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2014, 01:44:07 PM »
Current sense resistors don't have to be terribly large.  The 2 Watt ones I use are 2512 which are 6.4 x 3.2mm, but you can use smaller ones as well.  A 10 mOhm resistor rated for a Watt is good for 10 amps, but you could go to a smaller 1/2W watt resistor if you drop resistance down to 5 mOhms or something.

You don't ~have~ to use Arduino.  You can use the Atmel programmer and IDE (assuming your Arduino is using an Atmel MCU).  You can program the MCU using an option of interfaces which require 4 or 5 pins, typically JTAG.  It would remove the requirement for two programming headers which is pretty ridiculous really.  The IDE is free and the Atmel programmers are about $50. 

http://www.atmel.com/tools/atmelstudio.aspx?tab=overview

http://www.atmel.com/tools/AVRDRAGON.aspx

Programming headers take up a lot of space.  It's always been a problem for me.  What I've started doing is I just lay out a set of pads for a .1" strip header. I push the header into my programmer's plug then I hold it in the circuit board by hand when programming.  There's just no reason to solder in a permanent header that takes up a ton of space when it's only going to be used once or maybe a few times when developing the software.

The best high drain round cell available right now (IMO) is the Samsung INR18650-30R.  It's a 20A 18650 with 2000mAh.  LG has recently released the LGDBHE21865 which is an 18650 cell specified as 30A and 2500mAh.  It's hard to find them for sale though.  Otherwise, You can always stack a couple of the 1000mAh flat cells and run them in parallel if you need more run time.  Though, the energy density is considerably better even with the high drain round cells so it depends on how you want to lay things out.  Using a round cell with a round cell size board next to it might be a really good option for a box.  You could stack two boards in that slot.  Be a good way to provide isolation for power and logic.

Check out Newhaven for displays;  http://www.newhavendisplay.com   If you look at their COG stuff they have a range of options that don't use those awful FPC connections, I hate those.  All of their stuff can run on a 3V source.  You can get stuff a lot cheaper from China sources, but documentation can be sketchy for those.  Newhaven posts all the data sheets with the parts listings.

Well, hope that helps.  You're in it now :)

Offline c1truz

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2014, 02:20:40 PM »
Ya the 2 6 pin headers are stupid.  One to load the bootloader and one to use with the arduino software.  Unfortunatly i havent found the qtfn chips with a bootloader pre installed.  Not like it would be an easy process anyway.  Im going to look into programming without the arduino.  Its just what I started with.  ; (.   I can deal with 5-6 but 12 takes up more space than anything else on the board. 

The pdip is prob smaller than all the headers but I can split them up and place them in different spots vs one big chip.  Im def gonna consider it if using the other language is too much for me or during the learning process. 

Thanks for the links craig and the boards side by side is a good idea i may rethink my designs. .  Ill check the links out later. 

I recieved a 2s lipo today that im going to try out with the buck board I have.  Instead of a usb connector im going to use a connector for a 2s lipo and use external multicell charger.  Im going to evaluate the bat amd charger first.   Reason im trying that is size.  Especially thickness.  The cell is 1500mah 20-40c (wanted bigger but oh well)  84x34x13.  I may be a lil off on the length.  So I give up length to get some extra width and thickness.  Still @  84 its not bad. 

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2014, 03:13:28 PM »
The probelm with pre-installing the Arduino bootloader yourself is you are limited to parts in PDIP package or you need a dedicated programming header to do it "in-circuit".  Like you've already found, it may be hard find the high density packages with the bootloader pre-installed.  I've seen sockets for the purpose of programming those package types, but have never looked into it since I always program in-circuit.  That being the case, it may be hard to find a preloaded chip in a high density pin pitch.

There's a couple problems with using parts in a PDIP package.  For one, through hole packages take up a ~lot~ of space.  That's a real commodity when designing boards to fit in an e-cig mod.  Also, that package type is one of the oldest and is pretty much obsolete.  Makers still offer some PDIP parts, but only for the sake of hobbyists.  At best, it limits your options.  You really want to use one of the higher density packages which comes with a requirement to program in-circuit. 

The LiPos do cost you some space, but they perform really well so there's that benefit.  The low internal resistance makes design easier since you don't have to deal with voltage sagging a lot under heavy loads.

Offline miskol

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2014, 01:23:18 AM »
Current sense resistors don't have to be terribly large.  The 2 Watt ones I use are 2512 which are 6.4 x 3.2mm, but you can use smaller ones as well.  A 10 mOhm resistor rated for a Watt is good for 10 amps, but you could go to a smaller 1/2W watt resistor if you drop resistance down to 5 mOhms or something.

my circuit would require the sense resistor good for up to 12 Amps, so for 0.01ohm a 2Watt rated resistor will be good enough right? unfortunately the smallest available size is too big (2512) for my PCB design.

my solution is to parallel two 0.02 1W 1206 resistor to get Rparallel 0.01ohm 2W, will this be ok and will it affect the currrent sensing?

Please help advice, TQ.

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2014, 02:09:22 AM »
A 1 Watt 10 mOhm sense resistor can handle up to 10 Amps, a 2 Watt 10 mOhm sense resistor can handle up to 14 Amps. 

I've actually gone to a 5 mOhm 2512 resistor with my latest board.  I haven't checked it yet, but I don't expect any problem with it.  Saves a little power loss that way, but the lower the resistance the more sensitive it is to noise.  You need more gain with a lower resistance and when you increase amplification, you also amplify the noise.

If for whatever reason you need to parallel them, there's no issue in doing that.  You just end up with half the resistance assuming they're both the same.  You could actually use two different values if you wanted a non-standard resistance.

Offline miskol

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Re: Custom boost mod....the begining
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2014, 02:19:20 AM »
Thank you Craig!

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