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Author Topic: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**  (Read 8879 times)

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Online Breaktru

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**Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« on: October 07, 2011, 05:27:13 PM »
It has been brought to my attention by an ECF member of several complaints about Box Elder Chemical Supply company.
Several customers have complained about Nic levels being too high.
Here are just two of several threads:

See: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/224197-boxelder-nic-feels-wayyyy-too-strong.html#post4142259

Also there are several complaints about their customer support. Emails gone unanswered and poor delivery.
See: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/221657-boxelder.html
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 08:05:05 AM by Breaktru Admin »

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2011, 09:52:59 PM »
DAMN! How irresponsible....that's scary!   :furious: :furious: :furious:

I was just talking about a scenario just like this one, remember D?

Those super-high concentrations can be deadly if you don't know what you're doing or if even the supplier knows what they're doing.

But I agree with the people in the thread and my previous "end-result" statement that I made in here, some months back....

It only takes one death to ruin vaping in its entirety!

Offline horton

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 12:19:40 PM »
Your comment "only takes one death to ruin vaping in its entirety" is so true, Timesarerough.   The most frightening scenario to me is someone with absolutely no chemistry background getting hold of very strong nic sol'n and either accidentally spilling just a small drop on their skin or contaminating something in the vicinity of where they are working.  You have to treat that nic sol'n like nitroglycerine (sp?).  What we do not need at this stage of the game is negative publicity about any aspect of vaping.   
When my hands were working (have a nerve disorder), I made a holder for my nic bottle to keep it from tipping over and then put that in a casserole dish just in case.  It's just a heavy piece of wood with a hole to put the bottle in.  But, it greatly lowers the chance of a spill.  I alwayas use a syringe rather than trying to pour as well.  May be slower, but the chances of spilling are greatly reduced.   
I really don't think people respect the dangers of nicotine.   It can be deadly even in tiny quantities.  I've been considering writing up a "safety sheet" for proper handling and mixing of nic sol'n.  I just don't want to come across as a know it all by doing it though.  I'd like it to perhaps be a collaborative effort.  I know I'd forget things.....lol.  But we do need something to make it safer for people new to mixing dangerous chemicals.
Didn't mean to rant, but I have the feeling that many don't respect nic enough and it is just an accident waiting to happen.  Given the number of people getting into DIY, the odds just go up in terms of a serious accident happening.   Being proactive is one of the best safety measures I can think of.       
 

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 03:43:53 PM »
IMHO Horton, hosting sites should ban the advertisement or sales of anything over 60mg/ml.

There already are papers, posts and links to nicotine dangers all over the vaping forums, so its not a lack of knowledge available, its just a lack of common sense and 'rebellious' stupidity that causes these kinds of concerns and potential disasters.

Regulation IS inevitable, its just a question of when and how much its going to cost vapers in the end??

And for some, that could be even more scary!

Offline horton

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 03:56:14 PM »
Very good points you make, Timesarerough.   There certainly is no dearth of info on the dangers of mixing nic sol'n and safe handling, but there always will be one yo-yo who will screw things up.  Even a skilled chemist can make errors or have a spill.   
I do hope that I will still be able to buy 100 mg/ml nic sol'n in the future.  It is just more economical for me.   I treat it with great respect and make sure I have all the proper safety equipment on when working with it.  My biggest worry is a small drop getting away from me and one of my dogs getting into it.  That would be awful.   But, I usually go in a room in the house and  lock myself away when I'm mixing to reduce any chance of that.  Then I thoroughly mop the floor and wipe everything else down.  All the tools go into a special container with cleaning sol'n.  I try as best I can to eliminate any problems in advance. 
I do worry what is going to happen to prices once the gov't gets involved.  You know they will try to "protect" us from our own stupidity.  And that will just make for more confusion.   Wonder what it takes to get licensed as a research lab?   LOL   

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 04:03:47 PM »
Uuuum....a bathtub and a crack-head?  :laughing2:

Online Breaktru

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 04:08:00 PM »
Yeah Times, don't start a petition to ban 100mg Nic, that's the only way I buy it.

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 04:14:50 PM »
I won't have to after reading the Box Elder thread!

Or did we forget about the OP?

Somebody will wind up dead and that'll be end of hi-nic juice for EVERYBODY!

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 05:02:17 PM »
I won't have to after reading the Box Elder thread!

Or did we forget about the OP?

Somebody will wind up dead and that'll be end of hi-nic juice for EVERYBODY!

I wait for the survivors to rate a good Nic, then I buy from their source.

And I don't buy from reviews from this guy.........
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 05:08:06 PM by Breaktru Admin »

Offline horton

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 06:26:33 PM »
He looks like the guy who sells the 800 mg/ml stuff.......

Offline Squance

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2011, 04:21:59 PM »
I will not be buying from BoxElder....  :vomit:

Offline Sweet-Vapors

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2011, 07:01:37 PM »
I used to buy from BE stopped buying from them a while before the scare, and actually for that reason. I did notice the differences in one order to the next, and had too many "Bad Batches" to want to buy from them again. Since I had switched to RTS I have not seen any differences in lots, orders, or PG VG in being crystal clear every time, same level of nic (I am all the way to 6-0 nic for personal use, wife uses 18-24)

Juices stay clearer much longer than with BE nic, and the price is much better. With BE my orders took about 5 days, with RTS typically 2 (same distance different directions)

Just my 2 cents for the day!

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine TESTING RESULTS
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 07:56:29 AM »
***TAKE NOTICE!***
Results of Nicotine Testing

From ECF member Kurt: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/239728-houston-we-have-problem-nic-titration-results.html#post4564211

Quote from: Kurt;4564211
Just to bring people back up to speed with this issue, several people here suspected that their Box Elder unflavored nic was too high compared to the labeled concentration. Someone claimed to have tested that theirs was 240 mg/mL.  Others stated that theirs was also strangely strong.  I, on the other hand, suspected mine was just different somehow, since it had no TH and very little odor in the 100 mg VG I bought.  I offered to run full titration pH-curve analysis on any nic that was sent to me, since I was interested in nic level as well as freebase/nic-salt ratio.  Several sent me samples of theirs, and I am presenting the results here, after spending much of the day doing these as accurately as possible. 

At some point during the discussions, BE decided to send an email out to all its customers stating that it was impossible for anyone to receive >200 mg nic, and people should be assured that whatever the nic level was that was ordered, that was the nic level received. 

Titration curves are not difficult to obtain, but to do them accurately requires specialized glassware and electronics.  In my 30 year career I have done 1000s of such titrations.

What I did:  I used a PASCO pH probe calibrated to within 0.001 pH points at buffer pHs of 4, 7, and 10.  I also used a calibrated PASCO drop counter, allowing accuracy to within about 1/30th of a mL during the titration.  I used volumetric pipets and volumetric flasks to make dilutions for the nic liquids to be titrated, and I titrated with standardized 0.0730M HCl.  pH at 0 mL titrant was measured to estimate freebase/salt ratio, and pH curve was created to past the first equivalence point (2nd inflection point).  Each nic sample sent to me was titrated 3 times at least, and most samples sent were enough to do another set of 3 titrations.  The nic concentration was then calculated from the titrant volume at the first equivalence point, back calculating to the original sample concentration. 

All samples, including my own sample, were virtually all freebase form, base on initial pH and final nic content found.

I will give the results in two columns.  The first is the nic content as given on the label.  Second column will be the nic conc as determined by the above method.

Nic labeled.....Nic determined

100 mg....48 mg   (This one was mine.  Thanks BE.)
100 mg....120 mg
100 mg....272 mg   
48 mg....78 mg
36 mg....51 mg
48 mg....59 mg
100 mg....98 mg (this was my MFS 100 mg VG)

I would say the intrinsic error is less than 2% for all of these.  These results are as accurate as is obtainable, IMHO.  I knew the one that gave the result of 272 mg was way high when I opened it, as it was so strong in nic odor that I had to work with it in a fume hood for the dilutions.  It was also honey-amber, whereas the others were either colorless or slight yellow. 

272 mg nic was likely the base they diluted to 100 mg from, or else they were mistakenly sent a lot of 100 mg nic that was actually 272 mg. 

I don't give a rat's a$$ what their excuse is, someone could well have died from this!  I am a seasoned chemist, and this liquid was seriously scary to work with.  Clearly there is more concern with CYA than actually testing their nic.  Had they been responsible and expressed concern and actually tested their nic, this might have been avoided, but they instead chose to lie and even condescend as to how ridiculous the idea of levels being sold wrong was, and how oh so professional they are. 

For this community, this is about as bad as it can get.  I strongly recommend Box Elder be banned from ECF, and the word should be spread to other ecig forums.  The FDA would have a field day with this.  If others want their nic analyzed, PM me.

Vendors, you are now on notice.  Either self-regulate and KNOW what you are selling, quantitatively, or else you are putting people, as well as the industry itself, in grave danger.  I have no problem buying small quantities of unflavored nic solely for testing purposes.  You have been warned. 

I am seriously outraged by this.   >:(
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 08:02:21 AM by Breaktru Admin »

Online Breaktru

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine RECALL LETTER**
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2011, 05:21:01 PM »
Box Elder Recall
From ECF member Cozzicon:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/239728-houston-we-have-problem-nic-titration-results-25.html#post4606871

"From: Brad Bacher <customerservice@boxelderchemicalsupply.com>
Date: 20 November 2011 04:11:45 GMT
To: XXX@XXX.XXX
Subject: Subject: Box Elder Product Recall

Hello Everyone,

Due to recent indications by the public of high Box Elder nicotine strengths, we are issuing a product recall for any bottle of unflavored e-liquid that have been purchased between May and August 2011. We are investigating this problem to the fullest extent possible and we regret to inform you that we will not be selling nicotine products on Box Elder Chemical Supply until we can fully verify the nature and source of this problem. We are very sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you however, we are convinced that for our customers, company and industry, that a recall is the safest course of action due to the nature of this product.

We humbly request that if you have purchased a bottle of unflavored e-liquid from us between May and August 2011, that you place the bottle in a zip-lock plastic bag and mail it back to us.

We do ask that before you ship a product back to us that you contact us at customerservice@boxelderchemicalsupply.com or call 888-962-5877.

Please have the date of purchase or the order ID number and we will be more than willing to issue a Return Merchandise Authorization Number.

We also ask that if you return a product to us that you do so via the US Postal Service and that you send the product via Flat Rate Priority Mail to the following address:

Brad Bacher
1170 Sycamore Dr.
Brigham City, Utah
84302

Any refunds will be issued within 24 hours of the date of an arrival of product back to our facility and will include the cost of return

shipping if Flat Rate Priority Mail is used. We apologize for this problem and thank you for your attention on this matter.

Sincerely,

Brad Bacher

Box Elder Chemical Supply"
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 10:41:05 PM by Breaktru Admin »

Offline Sweet-Vapors

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2011, 07:03:43 PM »
I sent them an email expressing my concern over how they are requesting people to return product not being very safe. If you are returning product via the post office, shouldn't you want to be more careful about packaging? If the product you might be returning could be 272mg/ml and it was put into a baggie, and it leaks onto the mail carrier and they get sick or worse, who is at fault? Either way, could you live with the consequences?

I don't have any product I wish to return to them since I only have a little bit of "strong" 48mg/ml and I only use it for my personal use (that being only 6mg/ml so if I get a little more, or even 3x, it isn't that horrible) but like I say, since I only have about 30-40ml left of theirs, I'll just keep it and continue on with my RTS for anything higher than that.

Also, did you notice in the email they sent out showing their current test results? It was actually showing them to be 127mg/ml but never disclosed the strength they were testing. I wonder if that was supposed to be 48?

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2011, 07:28:47 PM »
I sent them an email expressing my concern over how they are requesting people to return product not being very safe. If you are returning product via the post office, shouldn't you want to be more careful about packaging? If the product you might be returning could be 272mg/ml and it was put into a baggie, and it leaks onto the mail carrier and they get sick or worse, who is at fault? Either way, could you live with the consequences?

I don't have any product I wish to return to them since I only have a little bit of "strong" 48mg/ml and I only use it for my personal use (that being only 6mg/ml so if I get a little more, or even 3x, it isn't that horrible) but like I say, since I only have about 30-40ml left of theirs, I'll just keep it and continue on with my RTS for anything higher than that.

Also, did you notice in the email they sent out showing their current test results? It was actually showing them to be 127mg/ml but never disclosed the strength they were testing. I wonder if that was supposed to be 48?

Do you think maybe they want people to send them back so they can rid the evidence and then repackage and sell them in China?

Offline Avamil

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2011, 10:38:14 PM »
They should be shot  :furious:
I can't believe a post I read from someone defending them and saying that they will continue to buy from them.
After the Recall was announce I'm sure this individual is Red faced. What a jerk

Offline Dungog

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 06:35:15 PM »
Just stumpled over this www.eliquidtest.com, good explanation on how to test nic levels yourself.

Offline Avamil

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 08:00:01 PM »
Just stumpled over this www.eliquidtest.com, good explanation on how to test nic levels yourself.

Nice find Dungog  :rockin smiley:

Offline perlionsmitnick

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2012, 12:31:52 PM »
Hmmmm. 

Looks like a garage operated business.  I'm not so sure that garage would even be sanitary.  Just google the address given to send back recalled material.  Soooo, maybe close to a crackhead and a bathtub..lol

Brad Bacher
1170 Sycamore Dr.
Brigham City,  84302

Interesting: http://www.dandb.com/businessdirectory/bacherenterprisesllc-brighamcity-ut-22001360.html

Oh, now I'm confused: https://secure.utah.gov/bes/action/details?entity=7794823-0151

Why I remain anonymous: http://www.mylife.com/c-106871553

It gets better: http://www.bbb.org/utah/business-reviews/e-cigarettes/gourmet-vapor-in-brigham-city-ut-22310924
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 01:04:30 PM by perlionsmitnick »

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2013, 10:30:22 AM »
Fortunately I've never bought from BE, or heard of them for that matter

I buy 100mg/ml Nicotine from a respectable seller in the US, and take great care in getting my dosage correct. I keep the bottle in a zip placcy bag, in a case, and have pets, but no kids (at my age, thanks, but no!) so the risk is only mine, and my friend for whom I mix also.

Any shop selling nicotine at those doses should be advertised on the forums as a NO GO, IMO.

Careful, but happy vaping  :rockin smiley:

Offline Starlyte

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Re: Box Elder Nicotine Complaints
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2014, 07:48:31 PM »
Yeah Times, don't start a petition to ban 100mg Nic, that's the only way I buy it.

You are not alone  fainting:

And, just to make it nice and expensive, the EUP will be limiting the levels of nicotine sold here to 20mg. raged:
Now tell me how you use 20mg nicotine to mix a good juice of one of the less concentrated flavors or using 2 or 3 flavors
If they limited it unflavored at twice that it would not be too dangerous, and viable for DIYers to do their potions
It's not as if we're babies, or are going to drink it, or us it neat  freaked_out: ever, as responsible adults.

We'll just have to buy it elsewhere and take the customs risk of heads or tails. A world wide 100mg nicotine ban would be a real drag, for lots of DIYers. It's not only cheaper like that, it's also much more practical in a condensed manner, if you see what I mean ??

Offline Starlyte

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2014, 07:55:40 PM »
Just googled "Boxelder", looks as if they've shut up shop  :beer-toast: . Apart from a few articles on trees they aren't to be found, so their "reputation"  fainting: seems to have had reason on them.

Bye bye BoxElder  ;cheers;

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2014, 08:19:04 PM »
Yeah it looks like they are gone. Probably opened with a new name.
I believe this was where they were at: http://boxelderchemicalsupply.com

Offline Starlyte

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Re: **Box Elder Nicotine Complaints & TEST RESULTS**
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2014, 08:56:11 PM »
"The store is currently offline. Please visit again soon. "

Thankyou, but no thanks.... :wallbash: bash your Elders into boxes. Those are safe, and sell ree-ally well, man. 

Well, that's one supplier who is better where he is: offline  fainting:

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