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Breaktru Forum  |  eCigarette Forum  |  Modding  |  Topic: LG 18650 D1
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Author Topic: LG 18650 D1  (Read 22183 times)

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Offline CraigHB

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LG 18650 D1
« on: January 27, 2013, 04:03:36 AM »
With the recent availability of the 3400mAh Pansonic NCR18650B, I'm thinking that kind of energy density is too good to pass up so I started looking at doing a booster mod with two of those cells in parallel.  Unfortunately, the discharge curve on those is too steep for the set of electronics I'm using.  I'd need to drop down to a supply voltage of 2.7V which is fine for the MCU, but gives me problems for the LCD and capacitive sensor.  Those have a minimum 3V supply.

I was thinking there might be another high capacity 18650 cell with a taller curve I could use.  In searching I came across this site;

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650Summary%20UK.html

What a wealth of information.  Check out the "Individual tests" link and the "Comparator" link.  So browsing that site, I came across the LG 18650 D1 and the discharge curve really jumped out at me.  Now, it's a new generation Li-Ion with a 4.35V terminal charging voltage, but that's not a problem.  The charger controller I'm currently using is available in a 4.35V version.  That would be the only thing I'd have to change hardware wise. 

What's interesting is that because the cell operates at a higher voltage, it has similar energy capacity in comparison to the 3400mAh NCR18650B.  Energy capacity is the integral of the discharge curve so you can eyeball it and see the curve between the two has similar area underneath.  That can be seen easily using the comparator.  You can also see that in the table data for the individual reviews.  What that means is run time between the two will be similar even though the LG cell has less charge capacity.

I've only been able to find that LG cell for sale on eBay and I'm not sure it's the right one.  It's a cell that's hard to find.  The Samsung ICR18650-30A is also a 4.35V Li-Ion and is available from Orbtronic here, but the curve is notably taller for the LG cell based on the one curve I was able to find for the Samsung cell.  That LG cell is really outstanding.

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2013, 09:58:18 AM »
Nice find on the battery data page. Super battery. Looks like you're on your way to build another master piece of a mod  :rockin smiley:

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2013, 02:52:56 PM »
I got a message back from the eBay guy confirming they are the LG 18650 D1 cells.  I ordered a few.  I'll be doing some of my own tests with them.

Offline Aromaz

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2013, 05:34:44 PM »
Cool info.  :thankyou:

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 04:27:49 PM »
So I thought I would draw up a quick enclosure for a couple of these cells to see how it would look in terms of size.  Looks like it might be an okay.  The dimensions would be 80mm x 40mm x 30mm.  I still don't have the cells but they should be here soon.  I'm actually excited about doing this one.  The 1400mAh ones I did last time are great in terms of size, 80mm x 38mm x 19mm, but they just don't run very long on a charge, especially since I'm usually vaping around 20W.


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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2013, 05:10:53 PM »
So I thought I would draw up a quick enclosure for a couple of these cells to see how it would look in terms of size.  Looks like it might be an okay.  The dimensions would be 80mm x 40mm x 30mm.  I still don't have the cells but they should be here soon.  I'm actually excited about doing this one.  The 1400mAh ones I did last time are great in terms of size, 80mm x 38mm x 19mm, but they just don't run very long on a charge, especially since I'm usually vaping around 20W.

That's a mighty fine looking case

Offline redwolfe

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 10:44:32 AM »
That case looks fantastic. I love seeing CAD drawings like that.

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 02:53:18 PM »
It's kind of a fatboy, but I think it will be okay.  Pretty amazing that I can quadruple the run time by making the mod 10mm fatter.  Slight increase in width.  The energy density is almost double for the 4.35V round cells compared to the LiPo flat cells.  Also, the impedance is lower than a regular ICR cell.  Between that and the higher operating voltage, two in parallel can output 40 Watts at minimum voltage.

Total impedance is 40m Ohms with two in parallel which would be over my limit of 30m Ohms, but the higher voltage increases my impedance limit to get them in just under the wire.  Everything really falls into place nicely with these cells.  Just have to modify the code as required and use a different charger controller.  No other hardware changes.  Kind of chomping at the bit to get them, but they're coming from overseas so it's going to take a couple three weeks.  And, of course, they have to live up to the data I linked to in the OP.

Offline redwolfe

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 03:08:16 PM »
Sounds like it will be a fun project! I was wondering though, why did you decide to have the counterbores of the screws on the face of the device with the buttons and LCD?

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 03:29:28 PM »
Yes, I have the same feeling about that.  I just can't figure out a way to mount them on the bottom without the requirement to use really long screws.  A deep countersink on the bottom would be a gunk trap.  The 1/2" #2 screws I'm using were hard enough to find as it is.  Also, putting the bearing load in the top would reduce the depth of the thread bite quite a bit.  The top piece is only 6mm thick.  With a black finish and the black oxide screws, it's not too horrible looking;

« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 03:32:32 PM by CraigHB »

Offline redwolfe

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2013, 08:49:06 PM »
Just out of curiosity Craig, did you use the sheet metal feature for making the enclosures for your Powerbloks? I'm playing around with it right now and it seems way easier than messing with the Boss/Base feature.

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2013, 01:32:55 AM »
I do an extruded boss/base, then a shell.  Just extrusions, cuts, fillets, and chamfers after that.  Haven't used any of the sheetmetal features.  A base and a shell seems to be simple enough.

Offline utak3r

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2013, 03:23:26 AM »
By the way, which charger controllers support this mode?
I know of MCP7383x line of chips. Anything else?

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2013, 04:22:45 AM »
I like the TI charger controllers a lot.  They have input voltage protection which is really good to have.  Here's one for the 4.35V cells, up to 1A rate;

http://www.ti.com/product/bq24095

Offline utak3r

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2013, 05:11:05 AM »
Damn, it's almost unavailable... too new for most of the suppliers ;)  Anyway, I'm far from this stage of my development, probably when my circuit is ready it will be available already :)

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2013, 05:59:20 PM »
What's wrong with the Microchip part?  I ordered some of the 4.35V ones from Microchip Direct (MCP73833-NVI/MF).  They were 85 cents USD a piece and shipped right away.  Microchip has warehouses worldwide so it shouldn't be too expensive for shipping.


Offline utak3r

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2013, 06:04:14 PM »
I mean this new chip from TI - it's unavailable almost everywhere... Microchip's ones are there :)  (not to mention I like Microchip because of their MCUs ;) )

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2013, 06:17:15 PM »
Microchip stuff is pretty good for the most part, but sometimes they do stuff kind of half ass.  I like their ucontrollers, but you take some lumps with their horrible revision system using them.  TI is what Microchip will never be in terms of getting things right the first time.  Microchip's strong suite is good documentation and end-user design that is easy to implement.  TI really falls down in the "easy to implement" arena.

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2013, 08:24:15 PM »

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 05:39:48 PM »
This is what I love about building mods, getting stuff like this in the mail.  It's way better than Christmas.

It's kind of a fat sucker, but with 6Ah, what can you expect.





The battery pack fits perfect, damn I'm good :)


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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2013, 05:43:28 PM »
Merry Christmas.

Beautiful. Love the looks. :rockin smiley:

Fits perfect? of course it does. Design by Craig  :thumbsup: I would expect nothing less

Offline redwolfe

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 05:49:47 PM »
I would have said "OOOH shiny" lol but its not shiny. I think it could still apply here. Looks great Craig!

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 06:23:38 PM »
Yeah, hehe, it still won't be shiney after I finish it with flat black lacquer.  At least the connector is shiney :)

Offline redwolfe

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 06:49:14 PM »
Do you have to tap the screw holes yourself or can they come tapped from Solid Concepts? Just curious since I might order from them very soon.

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 07:13:40 PM »
They self tap.   The nylon composite is really strong.  I've seriously removed and replaced the screws a hundred times on the first one I did as I was fitting the parts.  They hardly even loosened up.  However, try to use the same thread track every time.  I have little trick for that.  Once I've done the initial thread cut by simply installing the screw, I back the screw out when replacing until it clicks down, then proceed to tighten it.  That way, I find the original track.   Use a 1.6mm diameter hole for the #2 screw threads, 2.2 diameter for a close fit on the floating section.

Offline redwolfe

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2013, 10:37:15 PM »
Where do you find the #2 self tapping screws? I'm having a field day trying to find them myself.

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2013, 04:23:25 AM »
Yeah, they're tough to find.  I got them here.  They're not self-tapping per se, just regular sheet metal screws will do the job.

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2013, 08:33:28 PM »
Internals are assembled, coded, and tested.  Getting 5600mAh on the bench at 1C which is really good with these cells for a couple reasons.  For one, capacity ratings are normally done at 1/5C and fall off with higher loads.  For example, the Panasonic 3400mAh NCR18650B drops off to 3100mAh at 1C.  Secondly, these cells operate at a higher voltage so when powering a DC-DC converter, that 5600mAh is actually closer to 6000mAh with a 3.7V battery.

Power limit is 36 Watts.  Voltage range is 4.0 to 7.4V.  Current limit is 8 Amps at 4V ranging down to 5 Amps at 7.4 Volts.

On to the enclosure now, that will take me a little while, not a quick task.

Here's the pics;

   

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2013, 08:58:03 PM »
Nice  ;hubba;

Offline redwolfe

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2013, 08:59:07 PM »
Looks great as always Craig. Can't wait to see what it looks like in the enclosure.  :thumbsup:

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2013, 09:02:56 PM »
It's a beauty. Well done again. Lot's of power and battery life.

Offline tommygun

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2013, 12:08:06 PM »
The specs sound very impressive. Nice work Mr. Craig

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2013, 04:27:37 PM »
Can't wait to see this baby in action  :popcorn:

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2013, 05:25:08 PM »
Coming together, maybe finish it tonight.  Here it is in the enclosure with the top off;


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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2013, 08:40:34 PM »
Finished this build today.  It's a pretty hefty sucker, but it's tolerable and the run time is amazing.  Here's some specs;

Dimensions:  81mm x 40mm x 30mm
Weight:  155g (5.5oz)
Type: Variable voltage
Voltage range: 4.0-7.4 Volts
Maximum power output: 36 Watts
Maximum current output: 5A at 7.4V to 8A at 4.0V
Battery capacity:  6000mAh
Battery type: Dual non-removable 3000mAh 18650 cells, LG brand (LGABD11865)
Charging: USB, mini-B
Max charge time: 6 hours 30 Minutes (USB charging adapter required)
Features: ammeter, wattmeter, ohmmeter, battery capacity gauge, temperature gauge, hit counter
Material: Nylon-fiberglass composite enclosure, 304 stainless atomizer connector

Here's the pics;





Here's a shot of the LCD.  That's from a run on my load bank at max output.
The box will run up a 1.5 Ohm atomizer up to 7.4V no problem, pretty stinking hot vape though.



This is the rear view in comparison to one of my 1400 boxes.  You can see it's about 50% fatter.
Pretty amazing when you consider it has quadruple the run time;



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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2013, 09:06:22 PM »
Thats another awesome build Craig. Almost the same size as my DNA20 Brick, only about 12mm shorter in length.

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2013, 09:07:33 PM »
Absolutely spectacular Craig. I see you added a temp sensor and a hit counter too.

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2013, 09:11:07 PM »
Simply Amazing  :thumbsup:
How does the temp gauge and hit counter work?

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2013, 09:54:48 PM »
How does the temp gauge and hit counter work?

When the bottom button is pressed and held to turn the device off, an alternate screen momentarily displays with the last recorded temperature for the booster and the hit counter.

Temperature monitoring for the booster is required as a matter of safety.  I figured I'd just a throw a table in code to translate readings from a thermistor located under the booster to a temperature display.  I dont know how useful it is for an average user, but I actually find myself using the temperature gauge sometimes to see how well heat dissipates as a matter of design. 

I use the hit counter quite a bit to gauge the longevity of my batteries and to check run times.  I can tell how much they wear by how many hits between charges.  It's not exact, but it does provide a good estimation.

There's a master reset button under the charge lights that can be pushed with a pen or other sharp object.  It resets the hit counter and resets the voltage selection to 4.0 Volts.  It also performs a master reset on the micro-controller.  I actually use that often to jump to 4.0V for a dry burn so I don't have to scroll down using the "down" button.

Almost the same size as my DNA20 Brick, only about 12mm shorter in length.

This 6000mAh box does look like a brick.  This one is a lot more like a brick than my 1400.  I've been using it all afternoon now and I'm finding it is a bit heavy and cumbersome, but boy is that run time nice.  With the little ones, I have to have them plugged-in a lot.  Not with this one.  I'm a heavy vaper and I use a good amount of power, usually around 18 Watts.  So, I drain batteries pretty fast.

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2013, 02:14:35 AM »
Great Craig where do I find those parts? I like the features even if it's pretty large would make a good home/car mod! :applaude:

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2013, 06:56:45 AM »
Great build, Craig  :thumbsup:
Where do you do your enclosures?

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2013, 08:10:11 AM »
Great Craig where do I find those parts? I like the features even if it's pretty large would make a good home/car mod! :applaude:

fsors, I don't think it's large at all. It's the same L x W as the smaller version, just thicker. Still looks smaller than most mods.

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2013, 12:03:42 PM »
yes it prob fit in a flatrate box if he wants to share  Doh:

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2013, 05:22:26 PM »
Thanks for the positive comments guys :thumbsup:

Where do you do your enclosures?

I use a 3D printing service with the SLS method.  The company is https://www.solidconcepts.com.  Now, this is expensive, not really cost effective to do just one, but I usually get a number of them at once then build a few boxes for others.  Makes the cost not so bad, but even then it's expensive.  My 1400 boxes worked out to $60 an enclosure, the 6000s were $80 an enclosure because I did them in a smaller quantity.  If the cost is not an issue, there's no better custom enclosure unless you use CNC with metal and it's not any cheaper for small quantities, probably more expensive.

To use any of these production methods, you use 3D modeling software.  I use a professional program called SolidWorks.  I have an engineering friend who turned me on to a student version.  You can also use programs like SketchUp which have a free version, but SketchUp can be limited since it's not really designed to make parts and assemblies. 

If you want to really get into it, you can build your own 3D printer.  You have a choice of the CNC subtractive type or the additive type that use an ABS filament.  I actually have one of the filament printers and they work decent (http://www.solidoodle.com/).  I could make an enclosure with it, but it's ABS plastic which does not have near the strength or heat tolerance of the Nylon GF used by SLS.  However, lots of people use the inexpensive electronics enclosures you can get off the shelf.  They're usually made of ABS.

Great Craig where do I find those parts?

My parts list fills a whole page.  I use OshPark for my PCBs.  They're actually pretty cheap, about $10 a piece which is amazing for a 4 layer board.  Then there's the component soldering required to assemble the PCBS and the coding for the ucontroller.  So that's a pretty big question.  Is there something in particular you want to know about?

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2013, 05:30:58 PM »
Thanks, Craig :)

However, lots of people use the inexpensive electronics enclosures you can get off the shelf.

And that's what I'm doing: using standard ABS enclosures (or aluminum ones).

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2013, 08:55:58 PM »
Most people probably do.  The aluminum ones are tough, but heavier.  Believe it or not, that additional 2.5 ounces with the bigger mod makes more of a difference in comfort than the additional thickness.  Plastic is nice because you don't have to worry about electrical insulation from the chassis.  OTOH, aluminum saves you some wiring since you can use the chassis for ground.  Aluminum is a great conductor.

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2013, 06:23:19 PM »
I've been using this mod for a few days now and I've obtained some good measurements on hit counts.  With the 1400 boxes I usually get around 320 hits on a charge.  That may not sound like much, but keep in mind I'm usually vaping around 18 Watts.  The higher power levels drain batteries pretty fast.  18 Watts drains a battery twice as fast as 9 Watts.

With this box, I'm getting around 1350 hits on a charge.  So, it's getting over quadruple the run time of the smaller box.  In terms of amp-hours, it works out to right around 6000mAh which is brilliant.  These cells are higher voltage so they have more energy density.  With higher voltage, that charge capacity gets better mileage.  I'm probably getting right around the same run time as if I was using two of the Panasonic 3400mAh cells.  On paper I expected that, but you don't know for sure until you actually try it.

I think I can safely say this mod has one of the highest run times of any e-cig mod out there.  The only mod I can think of that would compare is a buck mod running two of the 3400mAh Panasonic cells. 

Really happy with these cells from LG Corp.  Fantastic performance.  It's not just the higher voltage and the big capacity, they're also more efficient with only 66 mOhms internal impedance.  The Panasonic 3400mAh cells have 100 mOhms.  Though, nothing beats a LiPo.  The flat cells in my 1400 boxes have 25 mOhms internal impedance.  Still, 66 mOhms is pretty low compared to any other round cell.

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2013, 08:22:55 PM »
Excellent vape time. More and more vapers are longing for longer vape time out of their batteries. Excellent batteries paired w/ your high efficient boost circuitry. Congrats  :beer-toast:

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2013, 04:25:20 AM »
Efficiency does become more noticable the bigger the battery.  With this one, you can see each percent of the run time is 13.5 hits.  The difference between something that gets say 90% at 20 Watts versus the 94% I'm getting at 20 Watts would be 54 hits.  That's something you would notice.

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Re: LG 18650 D1
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2013, 02:41:14 PM »
Efficiency does become more noticable the bigger the battery.  With this one, you can see each percent of the run time is 13.5 hits.  The difference between something that gets say 90% at 20 Watts versus the 94% I'm getting at 20 Watts would be 54 hits.  That's something you would notice.

Unbelievable difference in longevity and efficiency. Just wonderful

Breaktru Forum  |  eCigarette Forum  |  Modding  |  Topic: LG 18650 D1
 

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