Author Topic: DNA 30 Base for easy installation (Read 60047 times)

miskol · « **on:** July 04, 2014, 05:07:34 AM »

Hi,

this is one of the DNA projects i'm doing currently. i designed this specifically for me and with the dimension to fit the red Hammond Box 1590B that i have, i did it because i hate cables wiring and from the Facebook groups that i've seen in my country, there's a lot of problems caused by improper and rough wiring some even done with naked single core wiring. the design is for bottom-facing, where the OLED will be seen through the supposedly-OLED-hole-specified and the Up/Down button soldered also bottom facing.

since most cases only modders have knowledge of DNA connections, so end-users found it hard to troubleshoot their problems especially when their modder doesn't take repairing jobs and will all those cables stuffed in small spaces. so i hoped that the extra PCB i have, it might received some interest by others.

i designed it with a nice hole slot for the OLED, unfortunately it doesnt came out as i hoped so (my design mistake), had to manually make a hole for the OLED. i have years of experience with PCB design with an old software but unfortunately this is only the 3rd time i used a new PCB design software that i migrated to

so i decided to test the PCB first and without soldering the DNA 30 i have, i was able to for the first time i bought it few months ago, test and play around with my DNA 30 without any cables, and removable. naturally it received some interests by modders though which complained of the bunch of DNAs they bought have QC problems and were able to know them ONLY after they have fully wired it in their mods. of course you can send back to Evolv for warranty but the return time is a nightmare.

Specs for this DNA 30 Base:
- Keystone Holder 1042
- sized for Hammond 1590B
- PTC Fuse 12A (future upgrade with 2 smaller 6A fuses)
- Battery Reverse Polarity Protections with LED Warning Indicator
- slot for DNA
- slot for my Charger 1A
- slot for UP/DOWN switches

i understand that it is not the proper way to do connections just by contacts. it is intended for soldering and gives solutions for wiring issue where only cables needed is for fire switch and 510 connector.

but it is easy to just slot the DNA and do some basic testing, currently it is not able to fire output. i assume currently the problems could be because:
- i used Keystone 1042P, the polarity slot does not touch the batt so i had to solder a thick cable there but it might not sufficiently touch the battery for high current use.
(why did they even produce this stupid holder

)
- since the DNA input battery and output is just slightly touch with the base's connector headers, it might also not be sufficient for high current use

is there any kind of connectors or headers that can sufficiently grip/hold the DNA holes with good connections and also removable, it would be very nice.

comments and suggestions please, TQ.

thejewk · « **Reply #1 on:** July 04, 2014, 10:35:08 AM »

That's tidy mate, if you can get it up and running to high performance I'm sure there will be a few people after one.

CraigHB · « **Reply #2 on:** July 04, 2014, 12:09:06 PM »

Looks really clean that way, no wires.

I don't know of any board mount connectors that can handle the maximal currents you would see with a DNA30 so don't have suggestions there. The pin headers and sockets work well for the low current stuff, but they top out at a few amps. You'd have to use a row of them and I don't see any way to do that.

To make the board replaceable you might be able to use pin headers for the low current current connections then use soldered jumper wires on the high currents ones. With solid wires on the board connections, you can probably remove and replace them by applying heat to the whole wire.

Visus · « **Reply #3 on:** July 04, 2014, 05:10:46 PM »

Niiice

A paper mounting template for holes and cutout and these bolts or solder mounts for the screws/thumbscrews and they finish it up,
those will handle the current.

miskol · « **Reply #4 on:** July 06, 2014, 01:30:35 AM »

Quote from: CraigHB on July 04, 2014, 12:09:06 PM

Looks really clean that way, no wires.
To make the board replaceable you might be able to use pin headers for the low current current connections then use soldered jumper wires on the high currents ones. With solid wires on the board connections, you can probably remove and replace them by applying heat to the whole wire.

is it okay to use pin headers at the 'Batt-' & 'Out-' and only use soldered cables at the 'Batt+' & 'Out+'?

miskol · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2014, 02:10:53 AM »

Quote from: Visus on July 04, 2014, 05:10:46 PM

Niiice

A paper mounting template for holes and cutout and these bolts or solder mounts for the screws/thumbscrews and they finish it up,
those will handle the current.

TQ Visus, i'm not really clear with the shown components, but i did search for high currents headers/pins for some hours yesterday.

i did find some pins with 2-3 Amps rating which i think is the same pins used on TI's power modules. some are even able to hold up to 11Amps but unfortunately those ones are unclear on how they are used lol, will share them later.

Visus · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2014, 06:59:49 AM »

Quote

is there any kind of connectors or headers that can sufficiently grip/hold the DNA holes with good connections and also removable, it would be very nice.

I thought the picture would be self explanatory, my idea was, 'just solder a copper/brass nut on the board and use the thumbscrew or small brass/copper bolt to mount the dna, at that mm of distance they definitely will hold at least 8-15A.. we use m2 screws on atomizers and they do just fine..

miskol · « **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2014, 02:05:58 PM »

hehe sorry Visus, but TQ for the further explanation, now i understand

nut is soldered on the Base board and then the bolt are screwed through the DNA board. interesting solution, have u done it? removable but slight disadvantage that it leave screw marks on the DNA. will try to find the nuts and bolts for the size, thanks.

http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mill-Max/0850-0-15-20-83-14-11-0/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsZAkHAdIGE4PIlEQe4fV1C

this is the kind of high current pins that i found, unfortunately the size is a little bit not suitable and also i'm unclear on how to use it lol

miskol · « **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2014, 02:14:39 PM »

anyone familiar with these parts?

http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mill-Max/3435-0-43-80-47-27-04-0/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsSqJ2n7yWjArl79nXrIV7U

http://my.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mill-Max/0479-0-43-80-34-27-10-0/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsSqJ2n7yWjAhbgvewlCNiR

CraigHB · « **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2014, 08:05:49 PM »

You probably won't find any board mounted connector with the 12A rating you need. Probably what Visus suggested is the best bet, use a fine threaded brass screw and nut with a spacer. Brass solders easily and nicely. A connection like that can easily handle 12A. Just use regular pin headers and sockets for the low power connections. The other option would be to use a high power connector with wire runs to the DNA board and host board. The power connectors used on hobby LiPos would be good. They're pretty small and can handle big currents.

miskol · « **Reply #10 on:** July 14, 2014, 12:32:18 PM »

seems like i found a nice board mounted connector, i tried to find the bolt and nut that could fit the solder pad, but couldnt.

bought it from Farnell, there's no current rating mentioned. i emailed them, unfortunately they cant also help since the manufacturer didnt mention the current carrying capacity but they estimated based on ratings for 1mm diameter solid copper wire, the terminal should be able to carry 12A safely.

the connector's material is actually Brass with Gold plating, i tried to find calculations for Brass but couldnt. does Copper and Brass have basically the same current carrying capacity?

CraigHB · « **Reply #11 on:** July 14, 2014, 12:55:42 PM »

Comes down to heat. Brass has about twice the resistance of copper gauge for guage. So, if you take the cross sectional area and cut in half you can equate it to a copper wire and then find resistance and heating. There's also the point of contact resistance to consider which is a function of area, pressure, and material. Based on what I can see in the photo it should be good. Ultimately you can check it with a milli-Ohm meter, but most people don't have one of those laying around. If you put an ammeter inline while powered, you can check voltage drop at any point on the connection to find how it's doing.

miskol · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2014, 01:26:10 PM »

Quote from: CraigHB on July 14, 2014, 12:55:42 PM

If you put an ammeter inline while powered, you can check voltage drop at any point on the connection to find how it's doing.

so i use 2 instruments? an ammeter inline at the battery input and use a voltmeter to check voltage at the battery and also at the board is it?

miskol · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2014, 01:29:05 PM »

if the package is designed with nice fitting for example with a 3D printer, the size i think would be just nice isnt it?

redwolfe · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2014, 06:51:16 PM »

The board looks well thought out and clean but wow thats a ginormous fuse on the back. If you do another do you plan on changing it to a surface mount type fuse?

miskol · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2014, 09:27:16 PM »

bwahahaha, yeah pretty ginormous lol.

yeap, will revise the design and will be using SMT fuses.

CraigHB · « **Reply #16 on:** July 16, 2014, 09:49:14 PM »

Quote from: miskol on July 16, 2014, 01:26:10 PM

so i use 2 instruments? an ammeter inline at the battery input and use a voltmeter to check voltage at the battery and also at the board is it?

Yes, two instruments. Put your ammeter inline to get current flow. While under power and with your voltmeter on the most sensitive setting, measure voltage drop by placing one probe on one side of the connection and the other probe on the other side of the connection. You would typically see something like 20mV with a current flow of 10A. Divide by current flow to get resistance, in this case 2 mOhms. Though that's just an example, a high quality connection may drop somewhat less voltage. A poor quality connection may drop somewhat more.

You can also calculate wattage and compare that to total consumption. For example, if you're getting a 20mV drop at the connector with 10A current, you're losing 200mW. 10A for a single cell is about 40W so that would be a half percent loss in the connector which is acceptable. Any small connector can usually handle up to a 1/4 Watt before it starts getting to hot.

ro0bi · « **Reply #17 on:** July 17, 2014, 10:38:50 AM »

Looks good, can't wait to see it in the box.

miskol · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2014, 05:11:57 AM »

finally assembled it, first time vaping and loving it

Breaktru · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2014, 01:27:30 PM »

Nice work

I didn't think the display would face up flush to the box cut-out with that PTC mounted on the face side of the board but it looks like it did.

miskol · « **Reply #20 on:** July 24, 2014, 02:15:54 PM »

thanks! but yes it doesnt flush, there's space the height of a standard nut, which is there so that i can screw the DNA Base board to the Hammond box.

CraigHB · « **Reply #21 on:** July 24, 2014, 02:42:20 PM »

Wow, looks totally factory, nice work. You is an engineer

miskol · « **Reply #22 on:** August 06, 2014, 02:10:07 PM »

Craig,

after some tests and vaping, i noticed some spots occured. i'm assuming that these are hot-spots and to avoid it in future boards, vias should be put around the hot spots right?

CraigHB · « **Reply #23 on:** August 06, 2014, 05:23:40 PM »

Generally for PCBs running high currents, you need wide current paths to keep heating issues at bay.

High current carrying wires soldered into a though hole can be a problem for heating. It depends on the configuration, but in the case where you are soldering directly to the ground plane, vias won't necessarily solve the problem. It can help if wire through-holes are connected to a plane on a top or middle layer as well, but that's usually not the case.

For less heating, it's actually better to solder wires flat onto a wide pad than run them into a through-hole, but that's not always an option.

What you can do is either use a thicker clad, 2 oz over 1 oz for example, or increase the size of the solder pad to spread out contact area over the plane.

If able to use a 4 layer board, you can do copper fills on inner layers with a liberal number of vias to increase the ability of the clad to handle current. I do that myself on the 4 layer boards I use.

miskol · « **Reply #24 on:** August 06, 2014, 05:33:12 PM »

noted with thanks Craig, so then i will follow these steps for the new designs that i have currently:

1) fabricate 1 oz prototypes with vias around the hot-spots and see if the problem still occurs

2) if yes, fabricate with 2 oz and above

3) and lastly if there is still hot-spots, fabricate with 4 layers pcb.

again, thank you Craig

redwolfe · « **Reply #25 on:** August 06, 2014, 05:38:26 PM »

Miskol, was wondering what software you used to make the circuit board, I've been using eagle cad but I can't wrap my head around the user interface, it's not very friendly.

miskol · « **Reply #26 on:** August 06, 2014, 05:41:23 PM »

Proteus 8

CraigHB · « **Reply #27 on:** August 06, 2014, 06:17:28 PM »

Miskol is using a professional program since he's done PCB design professionally. The problem with those packages is they can be pretty expensive for a hobbyist. Suites like Altium or OrCAD which are a couple popular ones in the industry are like a couple grand per seat.

I'll admit Eagle has made me want to throw my monitor through the Window at times, but all of the PCB design suites are like that to some extent. You think it would not be a stretch to see a simple point and click interface, but I don't know. It seems they make products intentionally hard to use.

For something free, you might try looking at gEDA if you have access to a Linux machine. It's pretty good. Mouser electronics is soon to release an in-house free PCB design and circuit simulation package. Might be a good one to check out when it's available. RS Electronics offers a free suite called DesignSpark that I've looked at before. I wasn't particularly impressed with it, but you might like it better than Eagle.

miskol · « **Reply #28 on:** August 07, 2014, 02:21:17 PM »

sorry for the short answer redwolfe, it was early morning and i was preparing to go out to work

i wouldnt say i'm a professional PCB designer hehe, but i do have few years of experience doing some part-time job designing and producing PCBs for various electronic projects. no professional classes or certificates, just accumulated try and error experiences haha.

if you have just to start using PCB CAD softwares, i would advise to just play around with the various free CAD softwares available such as EAGLE, FreePCB, TinyCAD, ExpressPCB, Kicad etc. (unfortunately i haven't personally use them so i dont really know how good or bad they are).

but for beginners i would say safe to learn using free softwares with good forum support that have attention from their own tech, have many users, a lot of examples, libraries etc, EAGLE seems to be like one of the popular choices.

maybe once you have get the hang of PCB designing and you are much into it, you could advance into using higher level PCB softwares and if so i recommend Proteus and Altium.

CraigHB · « **Reply #29 on:** August 07, 2014, 04:24:48 PM »

The problem with ExpressPCB is it's proprietary and designed only for submitting orders to a particular shop. There's a number of free PCB software products like that. They may be much easier to use, but they can be a problem since they may not be able to output the standard file format. To allow the option of using any fabricator, the software needs to output industry standard Gerber plot files and Excellon drill files.

Even if you don't need plot/drill files and make your own PCBs with toner transer, you need the option of printing mirrored images. The in-house CAD programs may not be able to do that. It's possible to mirror printer output using intermediate software, but I don't have a clue how to do that.

Whatever the case, I would avoid those proprietary PCB design programs even though they are typically easier to use. They're just too limited.

Kicad was one I was trying to remember. That's a good one to try, I've played around with that one before. Never tried FreePCB or TinyCAD so can't say anything on those.

Jasen · « **Reply #30 on:** August 08, 2014, 12:23:43 AM »

WOW!!! I see some of these mass produced DNA30 and SX350 boxes and I can hardly see the board under all the glue, you've got one nice clean program going on here

Zoomer · « **Reply #31 on:** August 26, 2014, 07:20:49 AM »

Very impressed.

miskol · « **Reply #32 on:** August 26, 2014, 02:06:08 PM »

TQ guys, i actually already have two new designs such as this, a long one and a small one.

should i post and share in this same thread or each designs in different thread?

bamani71 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 26, 2014, 02:58:47 PM »

Ooh, wherever you post I'll be sure to view. I'd like to see your small one!

I'm also wondering if I should take a class to learn how to do this...

Breaktru · « **Reply #34 on:** August 26, 2014, 03:27:27 PM »

Quote from: miskol on August 26, 2014, 02:06:08 PM

TQ guys, i actually already have two new designs such as this, a long one and a small one.

should i post and share in this same thread or each designs in different thread?

It would be probably more convenient if were all in the same thread

miskol · « **Reply #35 on:** August 28, 2014, 04:40:08 AM »

mC DNA 30 Base V4, designed for tube mod, the only wiring left is for the 510 connection, all others already integrated with the Base board.

Dimension: 138.94mm by 20.83mm
Safety Features:
- Dual Parallel Fuse (Hold current: 7.6Amp, Trip Current: 16Amp)
- Reverse Polarity Protection + Warning LED indicator
DNA Controls:
- FIRE: Tactile switch (actuator height 3.4mm)
- UP/DOWN: Potentiometer (to decrease & increase watt)

bamani71 · « **Reply #36 on:** August 28, 2014, 12:33:55 PM »

I definitely have to learn how to do this. It would be awesome to crate a mod as small as the stealth DNAs or the Vaporshark...

CraigHB · « **Reply #37 on:** August 28, 2014, 08:09:56 PM »

Excellent, no wires.

miskol · « **Reply #38 on:** August 28, 2014, 11:49:31 PM »

thanks guys, will post pictures of another design, the smallest and most compact i've done, got some tests to do first

bamani71 · « **Reply #39 on:** September 01, 2014, 01:36:22 AM »

Looking forward to it!

JLIT · « **Reply #40 on:** September 02, 2014, 02:03:42 AM »

Very well thought out design. I'm sure many modders working with the Dna30 would love to elminate the QC issues by testing with your PCB

bamani71 · « **Reply #41 on:** September 02, 2014, 02:07:02 AM »

Where would I find tutorials on doing this? I've been searching and found some instructional pages, but they all reference creating a complete circuit board instead of piggy backing for certain items, i.e. fire button or wattage control.

Is it hard to learn? I am not very technical, but I can design if I have an idea...

miskol · « **Reply #42 on:** September 07, 2014, 06:47:42 AM »

Quote from: bamani71 on September 02, 2014, 02:07:02 AM

Where would I find tutorials on doing this? I've been searching and found some instructional pages, but they all reference creating a complete circuit board instead of piggy backing for certain items, i.e. fire button or wattage control.

Is it hard to learn? I am not very technical, but I can design if I have an idea...

there's no tutorials specifically for doing this, as far as i know of... i started doing it myself from beginning.

you should start by choosing the PCB CAD software, there's some info in this thread. once you are familiar with drawing the electronic schematics then you could continue with the PCB layout. then you would need to refer to the DNA 30's datasheet, where it is mentioned the dimension, holes, pad size etc.

miskol · « **Reply #43 on:** September 07, 2014, 06:53:41 AM »

mC DNA 30 Base V3, the smallest and most compact design i did... again, the only wiring left is for the 510 connection, all others already integrated with the Base board

Dimension: 76.96mm by 20.83mm (basically the size of the Keystone 1042 holder)
Safety Features:
- Dual Parallel Fuse (Hold current: 7.6Amp, Trip Current: 16Amp)
- Reverse Polarity Protection + Warning LED indicator
DNA Controls:
- FIRE: Tactile switch (actuator height 4mm)
- UP/DOWN: BOTH (there's option to either use and solder push buttons OR to solder a pot)
USB Charger:
- Charging current: limited to 0.3Amp (tested 0.5A & 1.0A but the IC is too hot)

Breaktru · « **Reply #44 on:** September 07, 2014, 07:18:03 AM »

Now that's a perfect sized board. Excellent professional job

methos · « **Reply #45 on:** September 07, 2014, 08:47:14 AM »

Ok now I want the v3!!!!!! Awesome work!!!!

bamani71 · « **Reply #46 on:** September 07, 2014, 12:27:22 PM »

I definitely want V3! Excellent design, thank you for sharing!

CraigHB · « **Reply #47 on:** September 07, 2014, 04:20:56 PM »

That's some beautiful work, looks factory.

Visus · « **Reply #48 on:** September 07, 2014, 04:27:59 PM »

its too small, its invisible, love that 1st picture heckuva fit.

But now girls want wanna say is that a dna in your pocket or are you happy to see me..

djboa · « **Reply #49 on:** September 08, 2014, 03:42:32 AM »

Are you going to be selling these? this last version is VERY nice and should simplify making some quite small boxmods.