Breaktru Forum

eCigarette Forum => Modding => Topic started by: Breaktru on January 10, 2013, 10:18:44 PM

Title: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 10, 2013, 10:18:44 PM
I want to give credit to "Diver" for his "The TSAF" and to mre777 for his idea to try a disposable camera although I believe this is the 1st welder using a disposable camera board.
A great way to spot weld no resistance wire to resistance coil wire w/ a flash circuit removed from a $6 disposable camera, actually it was 9.95 in CVS because this is a long range flash. If you ask nicely you can obtain some for free from a store that develops film.
This baby can crank out a max of 300+ volts so "USE WITH CAUTION" you can zap yourself pretty bad. You only need 75v for a good weld using the capacitor total value of approximately 340uF. Read thru the topic. There is good info here to build your own. Many of the welders shown on other sites for sale were made from the info gathered here. Too bad they never mention where they got there knowledge of building one. That is also true with the mods on this forum.

Photos are only visible to logged on members, see attached:

**I am happy to share info with all that drop by this forum. So dropping a mention when you post your mod elsewhere would be a decent gesture.
Show your support by signing up as a member and please participate by posting**

Key Points found in this thread:
Tips for a successful weld (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6167.html#msg6167)
Wire Schematic/Diagram (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg5990.html#msg5990)
Use Caution (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg5995.html#msg5995)
Setting Cap Charge (http://goo.gl/XDPaM)
Learning Curve (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6021.html#msg6021)
Rehash - Stable Voltage (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6039.html#msg6039)
Adding More Caps (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6046.html#msg6046)
Magic Number (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6067.html#msg6067)
Arc Welding in Action (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6081.html#msg6081) - MORE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6293.html#msg6293)
Butt Weld (BEST) Method (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg9157.html#msg9157)
Why is my voltage dropping? (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6121.html#msg6121)
Winding A Coil (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6369.html#msg6369)
Adding Panel Meter (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6261.html#msg6261)
Buy Cap and board (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6195.html#msg6195)
Quality Welding Clips (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg9148.html#msg9148)
More Parts (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg8251.html#msg8251)
LED for 1.5v (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6434.html#msg6434)
With Volt and Ohm Meter (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg9135.html#msg9135)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: redwolfe on January 10, 2013, 10:47:35 PM
Should be an exciting project! Can't wait to see how it turns out!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: CraigHB on January 11, 2013, 03:28:17 AM
A little spot welder for $6, can't beat that.  Pretty ingenious.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Pantera on January 11, 2013, 08:40:28 AM
Shocking! ain't it. I'll be following this closely w/ interest.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: SmokeRings on January 11, 2013, 08:45:37 AM
It looks simple enough to build. The price is right too.  :rockin smiley:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: eGoManiac on January 11, 2013, 10:43:31 AM
Looks really sweet! With detailed instructions, it looks like something even a modding noob like me could do ... and I could sure use one for my GG RBAs!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 11, 2013, 12:35:34 PM
Looks really sweet! With detailed instructions, it looks like something even a modding noob like me could do ... and I could sure use one for my GG RBAs!

Yes it is easy to make. I have it completed, waiting for some epoxy to dry. I'm having a lot of fun sparking stuff.
Photos are on the way........
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 11, 2013, 01:39:49 PM
I tried The Spark-O-Matic with 28 gauge Kanthal A1 resistance wire and 30 gauage Silver 999 no resistance wire. I successfully tacked them together but you have to get the hang of the charge duration. Too long a charge and the silver melts. Too short and tack doesn't hold. I found that holding the charge button for approximately 4 seconds is perfect (167vdc). Connect a volt meter.
UPDATE: Now use 75v w/ extra capacitance
Also, clean the wires with alcohol to remove any oils, including oils from handling.
The ends to be tacked should be over-lapped and NOT simply touched at the ends.
Keep exposed wire short.


(http://breaktru.com/ecig/sparky03.jpg)
(http://breaktru.com/ecig/sparky04.jpg)
(http://breaktru.com/ecig/sparky_meter.jpg)
(http://breaktru.com/ecig/sparky05.jpg)

Here is a video that will show where to connect your wires to the flash board:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydwHahAbw2A&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 11, 2013, 02:11:48 PM
wow!! id love more of a schematic if you have time...or just more details on how exactly you wired it up. im seeing a shit-ton of wires, leds, buttons...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 11, 2013, 02:22:33 PM
wow!! id love more of a schematic if you have time...or just more details on how exactly you wired it up. im seeing a $#!+-ton of wires, leds, buttons...

It just looks like a ton of wires due to my sloppy rush to finish. When I get a chance I'll see if I can put a schematic together.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 11, 2013, 02:34:31 PM
sorry, i didnt mean to say it looked messy...cuz it totally looks AMAZING. thank you so much for all the work you do break!!

cant wait for the schematic, but i think i get it now with your ecf comments and detail.

thanks mate.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 11, 2013, 02:44:11 PM
sorry, i didnt mean to say it looked messy...cuz it totally looks AMAZING. thank you so much for all the work you do break!!

cant wait for the schematic, but i think i get it now with your ecf comments and detail.

thanks mate.

I understand you totally and am in no way offended. It is what it is... messy
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 11, 2013, 03:37:19 PM
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwSgK4UTMr4&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 11, 2013, 05:04:13 PM
I have put together two schematics, first one is from a FujiFilm disposable camera and the second one is from a Kodak camera.
LED's are not necessary. Omit them if you like.
See attached............. (you must log on to see schematics)
and..... a schematic using a panel voltage meter --> HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg8453.html#msg8453)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 11, 2013, 06:32:13 PM
funny, i was just gonna ask if this was right:
(http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee477/jfukers/sparko_zpsfe0359c0.jpg)

i guess it is! wow...so awesome.

wait..maybe i did it slightly different...im going neg to on/off switch, your going pos...does it matter?

also, i see that 4 seconds of charging (in the video, from time code 0:13 to 0:17) gets you to about 300 volts, then slowly creeps up to eventually hit 350 max or so...kinda insane. so i guess around 300v's is where you need it to attach the wires you tried.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 11, 2013, 06:48:44 PM
funny, i was just gonna ask if this was right:

i guess it is! wow...so awesome.

wait..maybe i did it slightly different...im going neg to on/off switch, your going pos...does it matter?

It doesn't matter if you break the Battery Neg or Pos. Yours will work too.

P.S.
I had the on/off switch wrong, just corrected it.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: fsors on January 11, 2013, 10:02:57 PM
Dave that's awesome do you where insulated gloves whilst welding NR wires to R wires?  :applaude:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 12, 2013, 06:58:11 AM
Dave that's awesome do you where insulated gloves whilst welding NR wires to R wires?  :applaude:

No, The probes are insulated. I suggest that the user uses CAUTION when handling.
Make sure the capacitor is discharge before touching the alligator clips. I use a 15K resistor to short between leads before handling.
I may add a discharge post with a 1K to 15K resistor. 1K for quick discharge, 15K to bump voltage down slowly for target voltage.
UPDATE: A 15K discharge resistor/button was added.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jomurp on January 12, 2013, 07:16:37 AM
Good idea about the discharge resistor. Although it's over 300 VDC, the amperage is low but nevertheless it hurts like a bitch. I have seen a bunch of kids on you-tube making Tasar guns with the flash ckts.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: fsors on January 12, 2013, 10:42:48 PM
No, The probes are insulated. I suggest that the user uses CAUTION when handling.
Make sure the capacitor is discharge before touching the alligator clips. I use a 15K resistor to short between leads before handling.
I may add a discharge post with a 1K to 15K resistor

Awesome work Buddy I gotta make one as soon as I find some extra time. Would be very handy to have around in the vaping toolbox!!!  :yes"
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 13, 2013, 01:00:40 PM
Setting Charge Capacitor Voltage the easy way........
This video shows the original single cap, 120uF @ 170v. Now I use 75v w/ 340uF.
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiCT2V0Fq-E&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiCT2V0Fq-E&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: fsors on January 13, 2013, 05:06:33 PM
nice vid Dave really helps!
are you using  any solder and or flux when you weld?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 13, 2013, 05:09:32 PM
nice vid Dave really helps!
are you using  any solder and or flux when you weld?

No fsors, it's arc welding. The melting of metal to metal.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: MidnighToker on January 13, 2013, 05:32:04 PM
I have put together a schematic.
See attached.............
Dude....If I were, well into guys, I would so offer you tongue (or more) right now.  Was this close to dropping a load on one of these little toys from some 3rd world country in Europe.....

Got a drawer full  of disposable cameras that never got sent out so this should keep me busy for a bit....  Thanks man!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 13, 2013, 05:36:54 PM
Dude....If I were, well into guys, I would so offer you tongue (or more) right now.  Was this close to dropping a load on one of these little toys from some 3rd world country in Europe.....

Got a drawer full  of disposable cameras that never got sent out so this should keep me busy for a bit....  Thanks man!

Glad I could help.
Good to see you back on the forum. Been awhile since you posted.. like a year ago.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: fsors on January 13, 2013, 05:50:32 PM
No fsors, it's arc welding. The melting of metal to metal.

fantastic Dave even easier then. how long do you hold the wires on the charge whilst welding them?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: MidnighToker on January 13, 2013, 06:16:31 PM
Glad I could help.
Good to see you back on the forum. Been awhile since you posted.. like a year ago.
I know....I need to spend more time here.  Keep getting stuck at VF fixing problems.  Would much rather be modding.....One of these days I'll manage to pick your brain about PIC programming.  Been meaning to tackle that FOREVER.

ETA - the list of ideas in my head just keeps growing, but need to find the time (and patience) to see them happen.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: eGoManiac on January 13, 2013, 06:56:25 PM
fantastic Dave even easier then. how long do you hold the wires on the charge whilst welding them?

It's instant, Fsors. The weld happens, literally, in a flash!  :laughing:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: eGoManiac on January 13, 2013, 07:01:50 PM
Really outstanding! I'll start gathering the parts tomorrow ... this thing will get used on a DAILY basis! (I do a lot of coils, and a lot of experimenting with coils ...) BTW, for folks who are getting a "burnt rubber" taste out of their re-built Vivi Nova heads, adding NR wires to the coil can eliminate that and this gadget makes producing the NR/R/NR wires that will work in the VNs much easier; the traditional method of twisting the wires together makes too big a "knot" for use in the VNs, but these welded joints should work a treat ...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 13, 2013, 08:14:29 PM
I want to make something clear to those that are getting into this Sparky thingy.

There is a learning curve. Wire gauge and voltage rating, wire material, steady hand and eye co-ordination, prepping the wire by cleaning off any oil contaminates, etc........

It's easy welding the same gauge wire and same material together but that's not what we are doing here.
The first round of welding of 30ga Silver .999 wire to 28ga Kanthal worked well. Today I tried 32ga Nichrome to 30ga Silver and wasn't successful.

Trial and error. For successful welds, write down your wire type and at what voltage it worked best at.
Don't keep zapping over an unsuccessful weld. The arc will leave a burn mark and pitting which will lead to poor results. Cut the end off and try again. Once you have the settings down, you won't have to cut off the bad spots and you can do it in one shot.

Good luck guys and post your results so we can all learn from what you experienced. It will save others lots of time finding what works and what doesn't.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: lazydog on January 14, 2013, 04:46:59 AM
Another awesome project Breaktru thanks for sharing 
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: d_walk on January 14, 2013, 09:06:23 PM
I picked up a couple of spent ones from the local pharmacy that they pulled the film from. Gonna give it ago. Thanks breaktru for sharing.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: redwolfe on January 14, 2013, 09:11:25 PM
I just found this video on a similar product from Europe:

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OdDSkcqMjc&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: fsors on January 15, 2013, 01:31:25 AM
thanks for posting the vid red! values included check it out that will save some trial an error :applaude:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 15, 2013, 06:30:51 AM
Red, I posted the originator in the Video thread a week ago. Also gave him credit in the OP.
See it HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,727.0.html)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: redwolfe on January 15, 2013, 11:53:00 AM
Whoops, I didn't see that.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 15, 2013, 01:31:03 PM
I have some info to share that may help some that are struggling to find the right settings.

After playing around with the .999 Pure Silver 30ga and the Nichrome 32ga I believe I found a solution to a better weld.

With just the capacitor that came with the flash circuit, I was using 167v and that was a hit and miss result.
I paralleled a capacitor on to the base of the leads. Trying several sizes from 100uF to 1000uF.
I found that an additional 220uF, 330VDC was best (120 + 220 = 340uF). With this cap 75v was ideal. Spark is a lot less but tacks well. The additional capacitor did the trick.

Another thing I observed and tried it several times to confirm: When bumping the voltage up by tapping the fire button, wait and watch for the voltage to stabilize to 75v. Tap again to bring it up and wait again. You may need to do this 2 or 3 times. If you are impatient and try to weld as the voltage is dropping and hits the 75v mark, you are NOT going to get a good weld. Been there, done that.
A cheap meter with low input impedance will make the caps discharge.

Repeating what I said before:
Tight clamping on to the wires is a must
Keep exposed wire ends short
Over-lap the ends. Do not touch the tips
Cut off unsuccessful arc marks
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: MidnighToker on January 15, 2013, 02:06:45 PM
I can see now tha this is going to be the eternal project for me unless I find a way to send the wife and kids away for a few days....

Red, I posted the originator in the Video thread a week ago. Also gave him credit in the OP.
See it HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,727.0.html)
That video is what started me on this quest.  I must have spent about a day and a half watching that video before I could finish it without getting interrupted...not that I understood a damned word of it. LOL  Then Urquidez told me about this thread (Thank GAWD!!!) and I happened to have 4 cameras that were sitting a drawer for who knows how long waiting to get developed.  FREE TOYS!

I have some info to share that may help some that are struggling to find the right settings.

After playing around with the .999 Pure Silver 30ga and the Nichrome 32ga I believe I found a solution to a better weld.

With just the capacitor that came with the flash circuit, I was using 167v and that was a hit and miss result.
I paralleled a capacitor on to the base of the leads. Trying several sizes from 100uF to 1000uF.
I found that a 220uF, 300VDC was best. With this cap 75v was ideal. Spark is a lot less but tacks well. The additional capacitor did the trick.

Another thing I observed and tried it several times to confirm: When bumping the voltage up by tapping the fire button, wait and watch for the voltage to stabilize to 75v. Tap again to bring it up and wait again. You may need to do this 2 or 3 times. With the additional capacitor I notice the voltage takes more time to stabilize. If you are impatient and try to weld as the voltage is dropping and hits the 75v mark, you are NOT going to get a good weld. Been there, done that.

Repeating what I said before:
Wires should be clean of oils and tarnish
Tight clamping on to the wires is a must
Keep exposed wire ends short
Over-lap the ends. Do not touch the tips
Cut off unsuccessful arc marks
I have some monster caps that I ripped out of an old car amp when I first started looking at this.  Once I get a working prototype up and running I may try messing with some of those.  I haven't even begun to start looking for a case for this yet  :rockin smiley:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: WarLion on January 15, 2013, 02:47:33 PM
do you know if a nickel wire works? or you only can do it with silver?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 15, 2013, 03:12:33 PM
I have some info to share that may help some that are struggling to find the right settings.

After playing around with the .999 Pure Silver 30ga and the Nichrome 32ga I believe I found a solution to a better weld.

With just the capacitor that came with the flash circuit, I was using 167v and that was a hit and miss result.
I paralleled a capacitor on to the base of the leads. Trying several sizes from 100uF to 1000uF.
I found that a 220uF, 300VDC was best. With this cap 75v was ideal. Spark is a lot less but tacks well. The additional capacitor did the trick.

Another thing I observed and tried it several times to confirm: When bumping the voltage up by tapping the fire button, wait and watch for the voltage to stabilize to 75v. Tap again to bring it up and wait again. You may need to do this 2 or 3 times. With the additional capacitor I notice the voltage takes more time to stabilize. If you are impatient and try to weld as the voltage is dropping and hits the 75v mark, you are NOT going to get a good weld. Been there, done that.

Repeating what I said before:
Wires should be clean of oils and tarnish
Tight clamping on to the wires is a must
Keep exposed wire ends short
Over-lap the ends. Do not touch the tips
Cut off unsuccessful arc marks

when adding a second cap, can i just solder the caps together (neg to neg and pos to pos)? i dont know what the caps are on these flashes, but if i just use another one run in parallel, will it have a similar result you think?

i noticed on the cap im using, voltage never really stabilizes that ive seen...seems to always slowly tick down...maybe thats been my problem with the silver.

oh, and dude...thanks so much for putting so much effort and testing in for all of us, truly awesome!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 15, 2013, 03:18:25 PM
Breaktru,
I just picked up my camera and then some parts at radio shack. They didn't have any high voltage 220uF caps....only 35v

I'm guessing these caps are going to be a special order thing, or can you think of somewhere common folks can pick some up/rob them out of?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 15, 2013, 04:24:34 PM
Breaktru,
I just picked up my camera and then some parts at radio shack. They didn't have any high voltage 220uF caps....only 35v

I'm guessing these caps are going to be a special order thing, or can you think of somewhere common folks can pick some up/rob them out of?

220uF Caps (http://goo.gl/mcsdX)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 15, 2013, 04:33:33 PM
I have some monster caps that I ripped out of an old car amp when I first started looking at this.  Once I get a working prototype up and running I may try messing with some of those.  I haven't even begun to start looking for a case for this yet  :rockin smiley:

Cars use 12v so the cap is probably like 35v - 50v tops. You'll probable pop the cap. If it is too big in uF value, you won't be able to charge it too high. I tried a large 1000uF and it peaked at about 90v and took for ever to charge.

Like I mentioned, I tried 100uF to 1000uf.   Oh wait, just remembered. Also tried a 40MFD
Before soldering in the 220uF, I used two 100uF's in parallel. Worked the same as the 220uF.

If you are thinking of using the extra caps, jumper them on to the base of the test leads. It's a quick way to try different caps.


And.......... I added the discharge button w/ a 15K resistor
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 15, 2013, 04:39:33 PM
when adding a second cap, can i just solder the caps together (neg to neg and pos to pos)? i dont know what the caps are on these flashes, but if i just use another one run in parallel, will it have a similar result you think?

i noticed on the cap im using, voltage never really stabilizes that ive seen...seems to always slowly tick down...maybe thats been my problem with the silver.

oh, and dude...thanks so much for putting so much effort and testing in for all of us, truly awesome!

When your ready to permanently add the cap, yes parallel the caps. Neg to Neg and Pos to Pos.
but before that use alligator jumpers on the base of the test leads and just clip on the cap. Make sure you first check the polarity of your test leads w/ a volt meter.

After playing w/ it awhile you will get the hang of it. Update: Use a quality Volt Meter. Cheap meters will cause the voltage to drop due to it's LOW input impedance. A quality meters input impedance is 10M ohms or more.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 15, 2013, 04:59:24 PM
220uF Caps (http://goo.gl/mcsdX)

Yes, I know.....I just made a mouser order yesterday  :wallbash:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 15, 2013, 05:10:18 PM
do you know if a nickel wire works? or you only can do it with silver?

After welding the silver w/ the nichrome, I tried a strand of copper to nichrome and it worked good. I mic'd the copper and it was the same diameter as the 32ga nichrome wire. (0.007950)
Don't have any nickel to try.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 15, 2013, 05:14:14 PM
Yes, I know.....I just made a mouser order yesterday  :wallbash:

I've done that so many times.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 15, 2013, 05:23:59 PM
I've done that so many times.

I just got digging through boxes and boxes of components at work....and we have just about anything imaginable up to 50v or so......www here I come  :D
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 15, 2013, 06:30:12 PM
Breaktru,
I tore my camera down and it has a single 120uF 330v cap.

You mentioned that your tried 2 100uF caps and it worked about the same as the 2 220uF that you are using now. So I'm assuming maybe 2 120uF would work ok??? Because it would cost me about the same to go buy another camera as it would to order and ship a couple of caps.

Thoughts
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 15, 2013, 06:40:19 PM
Breaktru,
I tore my camera down and it has a single 120uF 330v cap.

You mentioned that your tried 2 100uF caps and it worked about the same as the 2 220uF that you are using now. So I'm assuming maybe 2 120uF would work ok??? Because it would cost me about the same to go buy another camera as it would to order and ship a couple of caps.

Thoughts

Too bad some of us can't acquire a $#!+ load of used cameras. We can salvage the caps too.

Anyway......  It was ONE 220uF added and before that was TWO 100uF's in parallel = 200uF.

Assuming my flash circuit has already a 120uF and I paralleled the 220uF. The total value is 340uF.
You would need to add TWO more 120uF caps for a total of 360uF
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 15, 2013, 06:48:47 PM
Too bad some of us can't acquire a $#!+ load of used cameras. We can salvage the caps too.

Anyway......  It was ONE 220uF added and before that was TWO 100uF's in parallel = 200uF.

Assuming my flash circuit has already a 120uF and I paralleled the 220uF. The total value is 340uF.
You would need to add TWO more 120uF caps for a total of 360uF

Ok....gotcha....dang....buying two more doesn't sound as nice....hmmm maybe ill try walmart and a camera shop and offer up some dough
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 15, 2013, 06:59:21 PM
i guess ill try adding 1 and 2 more caps from the 20 or so camera husks i have. NICE!!

 ;cheers;
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 15, 2013, 07:00:43 PM
Ok....gotcha....dang....buying two more doesn't sound as nice....hmmm maybe ill try walmart and a camera shop and offer up some dough

baps, hit me up if you want some cams.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 15, 2013, 07:12:07 PM
baps, hit me up if you want some cams.

jmarkus i accidentally smited you....I'm not actually sure what that means  ??? so feel free to smite me back

I'm going to poke around town and see what I can come up with. I'll hit you up if I can't come up with anything, thanks!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 15, 2013, 07:56:23 PM
jmarkus i accidentally smited you....I'm not actually sure what that means  ??? so feel free to smite me back

I'm going to poke around town and see what I can come up with. I'll hit you up if I can't come up with anything, thanks!

HAHAHA, i want a smote button. ill find a way...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 15, 2013, 08:30:11 PM
Breaktru,
Do you think this will work? It's gd huge!!!

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/D8819FD0-401C-4925-BA3A-671E96FCB937-14459-0000066F0AFB4DBA.jpg)

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/604ECB52-582D-4B1E-A922-0DB72C47142C-14459-000006716F877D28.jpg)

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/9F765A4F-C63C-4C47-959D-8F2781693FEF-14459-0000067170C4DE5C.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 15, 2013, 08:53:16 PM
You can try it and let us know. Probably take long to charge
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 15, 2013, 08:58:20 PM
You can try it and let us know. Probably take long to charge

I'm not doubting I just have a question about the size. Is the uF the capacity? Its only 530uF but its size seems way larger compared to the 120uF....old tech maybe???

IDK I might try it.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 15, 2013, 10:41:38 PM
I'm not doubting I just have a question about the size. Is the uF the capacity? Its only 530uF but its size seems way larger compared to the 120uF....old tech maybe???

IDK I might try it.

The "uF" is micro farad which is the capacitance size.
Old tech caps for high voltage rating of a capacitor was to increase the thickness of the dielectric making the physical size larger. Not true with new tech. Technology has changed. I bought some caps to replace in my old tube amp and the new 450v caps were 1/4 smaller than the originals
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 15, 2013, 10:45:14 PM
Thanks....makes sense.... And the reason for being slow to charge is that two caps in parallel will charge faster then one large cap
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: WarLion on January 15, 2013, 11:17:43 PM
well I didn't find a fuji but I find a kodak almost the same a few small changes and test with 32awg nickel wire and 32awg kanthal it works perfect
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 16, 2013, 09:08:20 AM
well I didn't find a fuji but I find a kodak almost the same a few small changes and test with 32awg nickel wire and 32awg kanthal it works perfect

Great WL. Happy that it worked good. Now we know that nickel wire works too. Did you use an additional cap and at what voltage?
 Yes it shouldn't matter which brand camera to use.

Extreme difference in material and gauges can be troublesome.
A perfect voltage for one wire may not be right for the wire being joined to it. One may melt while the other has just a burn mark.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 16, 2013, 09:50:47 AM
Thanks....makes sense.... And the reason for being slow to charge is that two caps in parallel will charge faster then one large cap

Regardless of two paralleled or one cap, it's the larger capacitance that will take longer to charge the cap.
The flash circuitry has high voltage but the amperage is low so it takes time to charge up.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 16, 2013, 09:51:50 AM
For those that are looking for the so called "Magic" 75v, I want to make something clear..........
75v worked for the capacitance that I used. If you are using more or less capacitance, your "Magic" voltage will be different. Trial and error will determine your "Magic" number.
340uF @ 74v-75v works best for me.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 16, 2013, 12:43:19 PM
Breaktru,
Doesn't seem like my power supply ideas are taking....but one of my old pc power supplies has a couple 460uf 200v caps. Would using one of those work as long as the voltage stayed under 200v? If so how hard would it be to regulate under 200v?

Thanks for all the knowledge!!!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 16, 2013, 01:25:10 PM
no matter what i do, silver wont work. id love to see a video, or at least a pic of a silver wire that actually welded to another wire...im starting to think its not possible.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 16, 2013, 01:28:19 PM
no matter what i do, silver wont work. id love to see a video, or at least a pic of a silver wire that actually welded to another wire...im starting to think its not possible.

JM with a bunch of cameras do you have it set up similar to Breaktru with more capacitors and using less voltage?

*edit* seen ecf post....what about wire thicknesses?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 16, 2013, 02:03:39 PM
no matter what i do, silver wont work. id love to see a video, or at least a pic of a silver wire that actually welded to another wire...im starting to think its not possible.

I just came out of my work shop and made several 30ga Silver .999 to 32ga Nichrome and some 30ga Silver .999 to 28ga Kanthal. All done the first shot with the magic 75v and a total capacitance of 340uF. Oh BTW just found out that the on board cap for the FujiFilm is 120uF. 220 + 120 = 340uF.

After using this thing for a few days, you get the hang of it. The hardest thing for me is getting an over-lap tack. I even have one lead set in a vise clamp so not to be too shaky. I found a solution to the single point tack. I take a piece of copper strand and tack weld along the adjacent wires. Good solid connection. It's like spot welding.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 16, 2013, 02:11:10 PM
Breaktru,
Doesn't seem like my power supply ideas are taking....but one of my old pc power supplies has a couple 460uf 200v caps. Would using one of those work as long as the voltage stayed under 200v? If so how hard would it be to regulate under 200v?

Thanks for all the knowledge!!!

That power supply may make a nice battery tab spot welder. Seems like over kill for just some measly coil wires.

BTW: I tried spot welding metal tabs for possible battery spot welding with the Spark-O-Matic w/ nails as probes. Not enough juice. Maybe if I had thinner or different metal type. I tried it on some roof flashing I had laying around the garage.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 16, 2013, 02:23:39 PM
That power supply may make a nice battery tab spot welder. Seems like over kill for just some measly coil wires.

BTW: I tried spot welding metal tabs for possible battery spot welding with the Spark-O-Matic w/ nails as probes. Not enough juice. Maybe if I had thinner or different metal type. I tried it on some roof flashing I had laying around the garage.

Well up untill a few minutes ago I didn't have any extra parts.....but that isn't the case anymore  :D

But I would love a battery tab welder!!! I have several pc power supplies as well as some 12v, 24v, and a single 48 volt meanwell power supplies.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 16, 2013, 02:53:55 PM
Just as an FYI

Like most have indicated the fuji doesn't have any plain markings (Breaktru reported finding out they are 120uF)

The Polaroid, Westen Family, and Kodak cameras I have been inside of, all have labeled 120uf 330v caps

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/E034E3B0-AB17-4507-BA87-0DE75DDB9E02-14459-000006B03271115E.jpg)

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/6654885B-BA98-49AA-8A0A-0DCE35CE5EC5-14459-000006B0342667C5.jpg)

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/0228E136-3C87-435E-A56D-19C75A904214-14459-000006B03575EB44.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 16, 2013, 03:00:11 PM
JM with a bunch of cameras do you have it set up similar to Breaktru with more capacitors and using less voltage?

*edit* seen ecf post....what about wire thicknesses?

i tried adding 1 120uf 330v, and then a second 100uf 300v i think it was...definately makes it more stable and sits at voltages longer...but for some reason silver isnt sticking at all. hmm...guess ill just keep zapping away till i do get it. 75v's seem to work great for all other wire i have, nickel is on its way so ill find out about that end of the week.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 16, 2013, 03:05:49 PM
i tried adding 1 120uf 330v, and then a second 100uf 300v i think it was...definately makes it more stable and sits at voltages longer...but for some reason silver isnt sticking at all. hmm...guess ill just keep zapping away till i do get it. 75v's seem to work great for all other wire i have, nickel is on its way so ill find out about that end of the week.

Well I joined the stock pile club today so I should be flashing wires together soon....probably spend tonight taking cameras apart :D.....I have no idea how many I have beside more than enough

But I don't have any of 99% dead soft wire....I'll have to get some coming to try

I plan on building my first unit with 3x120uF caps for 360uf total...that should get close to Breaktru's 340uF and 75v sweet spot
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: WarLion on January 16, 2013, 03:14:31 PM
Great WL. Happy that it worked good. Now we know that nickel wire works too. Did you use an additional cap and at what voltage?
 Yes it shouldn't matter which brand camera to use.

Extreme difference in material and gauges can be troublesome.
A perfect voltage for one wire may not be right for the wire being joined to it. One may melt while the other has just a burn mark.

i use the original cap from the kodak camera , i press the push bottom for 4 sec and wait about a sec the voltage drop to 120v and work perfect for 32awg nickel and 32awg kanthal

testing this i get hit and fuc** it really hurt lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZOt6jQRrF0
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: MidnighToker on January 16, 2013, 04:37:00 PM
Yeah, you were right about the voltage of those caps.  The voltage seems to be WAY too low.  Only tried briefly, but could not get a decent charge from them added in parallel.  Still have a few 35v caps to try later on.

And for the record....yeah, 250 volts stings like a motherfucker!  I need to tape up the clips that I'm using cuz the insulation SUCKS! 

I have gotten a few successful welds just out of the stock flash assembly (using 32ga Kanthal and I think 30ga .999 silver), but have yet to get any consistency between welds.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 16, 2013, 05:52:33 PM
i use the original cap from the kodak camera , i press the push bottom for 4 sec and wait about a sec the voltage drop to 120v and work perfect for 32awg nickel and 32awg kanthal

testing this i get hit and fuc** it really hurt lol

Very good WL. Nice video. I'm uploading one right now.
So far I haven't zapped myself....... yet.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 16, 2013, 06:19:36 PM
30 Gauge Silver .999 pure wire to 28 Gauge Kanthal A1 wire

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNyzZV_kWGg&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNyzZV_kWGg&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: WarLion on January 16, 2013, 06:24:51 PM
Breaktru nice vid
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 16, 2013, 06:58:51 PM
30 Gauge Silver .999 pure wire to 28 Gauge Kanthal A1 wire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNyzZV_kWGg&feature=youtu.be

amazing! so...i can see that when you say stable, you mean stable. even with the addition of 2 other caps, mine is always slowly dropping in voltage....never stable like your video. think i may just use a new fuji board to see if thatll fix the voltage drop.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 16, 2013, 07:47:57 PM
amazing! so...i can see that when you say stable, you mean stable. even with the addition of 2 other caps, mine is always slowly dropping in voltage....never stable like your video. think i may just use a new fuji board to see if thatll fix the voltage drop.

What's your total capacitance?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 16, 2013, 09:45:17 PM
What's your total capacitance?

im using 1 100uf 330v, 1 120uf 330v and whatever is in the flash chip, unlabeled..maybe 120uf?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 16, 2013, 11:11:19 PM
im using 1 100uf 330v, 1 120uf 330v and whatever is in the flash chip, unlabeled..maybe 120uf?

Okay, you have the same capacitance as me. Try over shooting by going to 90v and let it drop. It should stabilize at some point.
Are these used caps? and are they electrolytic. They should have polarity markings.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 16, 2013, 11:55:38 PM
Breaktru, was your Fuji board a aaa? It looks to me like the Fuji cameras come in aaa or aa and the aa have a longer capacitor the same diameter as the aaa. I'm not sure if that means its a different size.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 17, 2013, 12:30:05 AM
Okay, you have the same capacitance as me. Try over shooting by going to 90v and let it drop. It should stabilize at some point.
Are these used caps? and are they electrolytic. They should have polarity markings.

just ripped em out of the cameras, they do have polarity markings. even when over shooting to 90v, it still drops and never stabilizes.

edit: just tried 2 more flash boards and few other caps to see if any combo would eventually stabilize, no luck.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 17, 2013, 08:02:21 AM
just ripped em out of the cameras, they do have polarity markings. even when over shooting to 90v, it still drops and never stabilizes.

edit: just tried 2 more flash boards and few other caps to see if any combo would eventually stabilize, no luck.

Are you using an Anolog Meter? or a DMM. Are the connections SOLID ? When I had my cap on w/ a jumper wire I noticed dropping voltage. After I soldered it in, I was stable.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 17, 2013, 10:06:31 AM
Are you using an Anolog Meter? or a DMM. Are the connections SOLID ? When I had my cap on w/ a jumper wire I noticed dropping voltage. After I soldered it in, I was stable.

ah, ok...ill go ahead and solder the caps on to see if that makes a difference. im using a dmm.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bushmasterar15 on January 17, 2013, 11:02:19 AM
This is something that I'd need. But I don't think I'd be able to make this as I don't have a solder iron. If anyone might be making a few please let me know.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 17, 2013, 12:41:14 PM
soldering the caps makes no difference that i can tell....hmm, still seems to be the same drop.

baps, can you try and see if youre experiencing the same voltage drop with the flash boards and a few caps?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 12:52:09 PM
soldering the caps makes no difference that i can tell....hmm, still seems to be the same drop.

baps, can you try and see if youre experiencing the same voltage drop with any flash board and a few caps?

Will do I planned on soldering from the beginning, going to try to get it together tonight. I believe Breaktru started with AAA Fuji board and added a single 220uF capacitor, so I'm also going to start with a AAA Fuji (but use a AA battery) and add a 120uF and 100uF cap to try to match Breaktru as close as possible. I went through all my flashes and came up with a couple with 100uF caps and like three with 80uF caps. The Fuji's seem to come in a AA version and a AAA version, everything looks identical except for the battery holder and the AA version has a longer cap of the same diameter as the AAA.

Breaktru,
What size resistor did you use for the discharge button? And did you just add it between the + and - of the cap?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 17, 2013, 12:58:49 PM
Breaktru,
What size resistor did you use for the discharge button? And did you just add it between the + and - of the cap?

I used a 15K so it's pretty smooth discharging down the voltage. You can use a 1K but discharge would be faster and you might miss the mark.

The 15K is in series with a tact switch across the output.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 02:07:12 PM
What do you think about something like this?
- Fancy screen
- Screw post for one wire
- Lead and alligator clip for other wire

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/ScreenShot559.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Pantera on January 17, 2013, 02:09:56 PM
What do you think about something like this?
- Fancy screen
- Screw post for one wire
- Lead and alligator clip for other wire

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/ScreenShot559.jpg)

Cooool man. Someone has too much free time on there hands.  :rockin smiley:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 02:13:26 PM
Cooool man. Someone has too much free time on there hands.  :rockin smiley:

Thanks....It doesn't take to long when you do it all day  :D
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Jellyfish on January 17, 2013, 02:18:30 PM
First Breaktru, thanks for all of the work that you've done in getting the wire welder put together. I've been following the thread here and on ECF for a couple of days now.

I've got a Fuji board that had a AAA battery installed. I'm guessing that the cap is probably around 100 uF from the pictures I've seen and also comparing it to the 120 uF cap from the Kodak board that I scavenged.

I've also got three 220 uF @ 350 V capacitors and three 15 K ohm 2 W resistors coming from eBay.

Is there an advantage to pulling the cap off of the board and swapping in two of the caps for a total of 440 uF? From what I'm seeing, I'd assume that my target voltage for kanthal and silver wire welding would be less that the 70 V that you've been using.

Also, do you think that the bleeder circuit would work better with 30 K ohms?

And last, since I will be using a AA battery as a power source, will a 1.7 V LED work in the power on circuit? It seems to be the lowest voltage LED that my local RadioShack carries.

Thanks!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 17, 2013, 02:23:48 PM
What do you think about something like this?
- Fancy screen
- Screw post for one wire
- Lead and alligator clip for other wire

Looks really great bap. good work dude
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 02:26:47 PM
Looks really great bap. good work dude

Thanks....I'm hopping the screw terminal will be nice and secure, leaving less to deal with??? We will see
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: jmarkus on January 17, 2013, 02:49:10 PM
What do you think about something like this?
- Fancy screen
- Screw post for one wire
- Lead and alligator clip for other wire

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/ScreenShot559.jpg)


really really nice baps. cant wait for my screen to come in!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 02:53:49 PM

really really nice baps. cant wait for my screen to come in!

Thanks, I haven't ordered one yet. I'm impatient so I might just grab a dmm from harbor freight and rig up.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 17, 2013, 03:03:03 PM
First Breaktru, thanks for all of the work that you've done in getting the wire welder put together. I've been following the thread here and on ECF for a couple of days now.
You are very welcome Jelly and welcome to the forum. The premise of this forum is to share..

I've got a Fuji board that had a AAA battery installed. I'm guessing that the cap is probably around 100 uF from the pictures I've seen and also comparing it to the 120 uF cap from the Kodak board that I scavenged.
As per the narrator in the FUJI CAMERA FLASH MOD video in this thread, the cap is a 120uF

I've also got three 220 uF @ 350 V capacitors and three 150 K ohm 2 W resistors coming from eBay.
What's the 150 K ohm for and why 2W. I used a 15 K. Amperage is low so it can be a small wattage as well as the switch.

Is there an advantage to pulling the cap off of the board and swapping in two of the caps for a total of 440 uF? From what I'm seeing, I'd assume that my target voltage for kanthal and silver wire welding would be less that the 70 V that you've been using.
It's your choice. I use 340uF @ 75v. The same 75v worked for 30ga silver, 32ga Nichrome and 28ga Kanthal
If your going to use a different capacitance (440uF), you'll have to find the right voltage. Also resistance of the leads, connections and length may play a part on the output voltage needed. So experiment.

Also, do you think that the bleeder circuit would work better with 300 K ohms?
You can try it but I'm thinking it would be very slow bleeding down. The 15K worked great for me. Again, experiment.

And last, since I will be using a AA battery as a power source, will a 1.7 V LED work in the power on circuit? It seems to be the lowest voltage LED that my local RadioShack carries.
Thanks!
I went thru a pile of LED's to find one to work on a fresh battery (1.6v). It worked good until this morning when I measured the battery at 1.45v.
So I went through some more LED's and found one that worked w/ the lower voltage.
This morning I went on line and found some that are bright at low voltage. You need a 940nm which is a forward voltage of 1.35v to 1.6v
I opted for highest Radiant intensity.
This is actually an Infrared LED: TSAL5100 (http://www.vishay.com/ir-emitting-diodes/list/product-81007/)

Update:
If you are going to install a panel meter, you won't need the ON indication LED and the charge LED is really not necessary.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 17, 2013, 03:15:36 PM
Thanks....I'm hopping the screw terminal will be nice and secure, leaving less to deal with??? We will see

Nice touch w/ the stationary post. I find it a lot easier to get a parallel tack weld when I secure one end in my "Helping Hands Soldering Aid" which I show using in the last video. Less hand shaking.

Just my 2 cents. You may want to rethink the screw terminal for something different. It may most likely nick the wire and weaken it.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 03:25:00 PM
Nice touch w/ the stationary post. I find it a lot easier to get a parallel tack weld when I secure one end in my "Helping Hands Soldering Aid" which I show using in the last video. Less hand shaking.

Just my 2 cents. You may want to rethink the screw terminal for something different. It may most likely nick the wire and weaken it.

Good thought....I bought a pack of the brass alligator clips from radio shack. Maybe I'll try fixing one of those vertically.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 07:12:29 PM
Ok JW.....I have three caps (Fuji AAA, 100uF, 120uF)

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/D9669A3B-34A5-42EB-A934-94E4C9DC9058-21068-0000070E6A9700B0.jpg)



Are you using a cheap dmm?

When using a harbor freight $4 cen-tech dmm I also get a fast leak. Way fast.....not usable fast  :thumbsdwn2:

When using a $20 harbor freight cen-tech its a lot more stable. It still drops off, but very slowly. Slow enough that once you get it set you should be able to weld before it drops any...maybe a tenth of a volt or two if you had to fumble with things.

I was going to bring home a good fluke dmm from work and forgot, but I wonder if you will ever get a dead solid reading with any dmm.

The only other thing I wondered about and haven't tried is that I completely strip everything not used off the pcb, including the flash.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 17, 2013, 07:19:31 PM
soldering the caps makes no difference that i can tell....hmm, still seems to be the same drop.

baps, can you try and see if youre experiencing the same voltage drop with the flash boards and a few caps?
VoltMeter Input Impedance:

With my good DMM from the videos on 1000VDC scale, my voltage does not show any noticeable voltage drop.

I hooked up an old Cheap-o DMM that may have cost 5 bucks, the voltage drops considerable on all VDC ranges. So I'm assuming the impedance on this junk is low.

I tried a cheap Anolog and it was rock solid on all VDC scales. Even though Anolog meters are generally low impedance input.

So.......... I would bet it's your meter that's draining the cap do to low impedance input rating.

In general, the meter's input impedance should always be much higher than the source impedance of the device under test. When evaluating input impedance of a multimeter the higher the value the better. Fluke is rated at 10M

Also see: how to measure the internal resistance of a voltmeter? (http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/13047/how-to-measure-the-internal-resistance-of-a-voltmeter)

Take a battery (AA) measure the voltage. Measure a resistor (1M) and put it in series w/ the battery. Measure the voltage after the resistor and use these results in the calculator in the link below....
Here is the calculator the check your Input Impedance: Excel Calculator (http://www.qsl.net/ea2bsn/DMM_IR.xls)
Formula: DMM internal resistance in megaohms= ("DMM voltage measured " x "value of resistance used in megaohms") / ("input voltage" - "DMM voltage measured ")
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 07:31:49 PM
Breaktru....I want the link on how to increase the impedance of HF $4 dmm  :laughing2:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 17, 2013, 07:45:44 PM
I just checked two meters with this formula spreadsheet: DMM IR Calculator (http://www.qsl.net/ea2bsn/DMM_IR.xls)

Input Impedance
My good meter is 10M
EL-Cheap-O is 1M
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Papa Hoyt on January 17, 2013, 08:27:39 PM
I know the circuits design was for an input of 1.5V from an alkaline but has anyone tested the V threashhold? maybe doubling the AAs into 3V or even A 3.7LiIon?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Papa Hoyt on January 17, 2013, 08:35:22 PM
What I am getting at is if we can up the input Voltage then we could reduce charging times on larger capacitors
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 08:38:40 PM
I might know that 9v is no bueno  :no:

That's what happens when you buy 9v battery tabs :D
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Papa Hoyt on January 17, 2013, 08:44:15 PM
I might know that 9v is no bueno  :no:

That's what happens when you buy 9v battery tabs :D

Yeah a 6X bump in voltage is not really what I had in mind but I would imagine the magic smoke show was nice for a minute
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 08:50:21 PM
I'm going to give 3.3v a try from a pc power supply.

I have aspirations to build the ultimate aty station with:
- Spaaaahkk-o-matic Welder with volt display
- Ohm test leads and display
- VV Multi aty break in/test stations with fan assist.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 17, 2013, 09:05:53 PM
I think you would damage the circuitry. It was designed for 1.5v.
Now if you want to increase the charge time, replace the AA with a C or D cell. Don't know why you would want to unless you have a super large capacitance. It's relatively quick enough to go from 0 to 75v.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Papa Hoyt on January 17, 2013, 09:10:51 PM
Was just thinking that maybe a bank of capacitors or one fatty might give more stable amperage at lower voltages and better heat to the weld. Maybe i am over thinking this.

I have an adjustable regulator board that I could use that is capable of 3A output so this would speedup the charge and soak time as well. i call it soak but that may be an incorrect term for the amount of time that it takes the capacitor to sabilize V. i have had 0 classes on this and only limited working knowledge.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Papa Hoyt on January 17, 2013, 09:12:20 PM
Been looking for capacitors on fleabay and am kinda surprised they have a selection from 50uf to 1400uf in the 330V class
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 17, 2013, 09:22:01 PM
I have this Spark-O-Matic thing down pretty good w/ just an AA battery and 340uF capacitance. I've achieved 98% success on the first weld.
We are welding thin wire to thin wire. I don't really see a need to go any further in circuit modifications. Aesthetics is good. I like what bap did on his design and Warlion did a bang up job on his build and video.
I have these parts coming for a DC-DC converter welder but why when this is working so well for me.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 17, 2013, 09:25:19 PM
I'm close.... Just gotta get back to the bench and weld some wire. I'm ok with the AA and the time to charge the capacitors.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Papa Hoyt on January 17, 2013, 09:28:41 PM
I have this Spark-O-Matic thing down pretty good w/ just an AA battery and 340uF capacitance. I've achieved 98% success on the first weld.
We are welding thin wire to thin wire. I don't really see a need to go any further in circuit modifications. Aesthetics is good. I like what bap did on his design and Warlion did a bang up job on his build and video.
I have these parts coming for a DC-DC converter welder but why when this is working so well for me.

like I said, maybe I was over thinking it. Maybe my ideas would work better as the tab welder you mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 17, 2013, 09:35:40 PM
like I said, maybe I was over thinking it. Maybe my ideas would work better as the tab welder you mentioned earlier.

Exactly... but hey it's your build so if you want to try something different, go for it. I was fooling around before the spark-o-matic with a large capacitor and a large 12v Gel Cell battery and it made mean sparks.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: WarLion on January 17, 2013, 10:43:29 PM
today i get another kodak camera and this one the cap said is 330vs 80uf  but is so hard to find here 330v caps
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: rrtwister on January 18, 2013, 05:30:47 AM
today i get another kodak camera and this one the cap said is 330vs 80uf  but is so hard to find here 330v caps

Hey WarLion, cool video  :rockin smiley:
If you are using a camera board from say Kodak. Wouldn't it be practical to use the extra cap or two from another Kodak camera.
And the same goes for Fuji. Fuji board cap with another Fuji cap. This way your doubling or tripling the capacity and using the same components.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: MidnighToker on January 18, 2013, 02:24:02 PM
I can NOT get any consistent welds from this.  Tried adding one then 2 100uf 50v caps but then the charge maxes out @ 75 volts.  Still get a decent weld from that but it's still inconsistent.  Gonna have to go hunting for some larger caps I guess.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Jellyfish on January 18, 2013, 03:02:45 PM
I can NOT get any consistent welds from this.  Tried adding one then 2 100uf 50v caps but then the charge maxes out @ 75 volts.

I'm still waiting for some parts, but from what I understand it looks like the voltage on your caps is too low. I'm waiting for some caps that are rated at 350 V but I think that Breaktru indicated 330 V which is the same rating as the cap on the Kodak board that I have.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 18, 2013, 03:23:34 PM
I just came from Costco and I got 10 Kodak spent cameras. Opened up 6 and found different caps and boards.
I have 80, 100, (3) 120 and a 160uF caps. Two of the 6 had shot film in them.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Papa Hoyt on January 18, 2013, 06:19:55 PM
I can NOT get any consistent welds from this.  Tried adding one then 2 100uf 50v caps but then the charge maxes out @ 75 volts.  Still get a decent weld from that but it's still inconsistent.  Gonna have to go hunting for some larger caps I guess.

Because you are using 50V capacitors, you are lucky to get 75V form that. get 330V caps
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: MidnighToker on January 18, 2013, 06:25:11 PM
Because you are using 50V capacitors, you are lucky to get 75V form that. get 330V caps
Kinda about what I figured.  Guess the voltages averaged out between the caps (one on board is unmarked and I can't get a clean read from it).  Think I'm going to scrifice one of the odd flash assemblies and use the cap off that to see if it will stabilize.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: Breaktru on January 18, 2013, 06:55:28 PM
Kinda about what I figured.  Guess the voltages averaged out between the caps (one on board is unmarked and I can't get a clean read from it).  Think I'm going to sacrifice one of the odd flash assemblies and use the cap off that to see if it will stabilize.

The voltage of the cap has nothing to do with how it's working. It's safety. You will most likely BLOW the cap and if not monitored, 300+ volts on 35v cap can be quite startling if not dangerous and may cause a fire. Even 75v will do it.

Take the caps off of the other camera circuits you have. Try to get a total of 320, 340 or 360uf. Start w/ 70v and work up a volt at a time for each weld. Cut both ends off of an unsuccessful weld and try again.
Don't attempt a weld if the voltage is dropping. You need a maintained voltage.

Shaky hands or an irregularity in the straightness of the wire spot to be welded will lead to failure. Lock one probe in a stationary clamp/vise/stand and for the second probe, lean your hand on something stable. Use magnification, over lap the wires. Before charging cap, over lap the two wires to be welded and see what it looks like.

Update: Instead of overlapping the wires, try the BUTT WELD TECHNIQUE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg9157.html#msg9157)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 18, 2013, 10:36:38 PM
Here she be....well the first one anyway :D

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/D4DC8B15-FF80-4479-9D04-B95B86B84BE7-21068-00000789891A2C2C.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: CraigHB on January 19, 2013, 03:47:51 AM
There's some good videos of exploding capacitors on youtube.  Doesn't take all that much over the rating for that to happen.  Here's one;

http://www.eevblog.com/2009/11/04/eevblog-42-exploding-capacitors-in-high-speed/
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 19, 2013, 06:32:15 AM
There's some good videos of exploding capacitors on youtube.  Doesn't take all that much over the rating for that to happen.  Here's one;
http://www.eevblog.com/2009/11/04/eevblog-42-exploding-capacitors-in-high-speed/

Nice... good find. I like his videos
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 19, 2013, 08:42:28 AM
Here she be....well the first one anyway :D

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/D4DC8B15-FF80-4479-9D04-B95B86B84BE7-21068-00000789891A2C2C.jpg)

Good going Bradley. Now your in business.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 19, 2013, 09:33:12 AM
Do to security, I can only post 3 URL links at a time.

Key Points found in this thread:

Tips for a successful weld (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6167.html#msg6167)

Wire Schematic/Diagram (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg5990.html#msg5990)

Use Caution (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg5995.html#msg5995)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 19, 2013, 09:33:38 AM
Setting Cap Charge (http://goo.gl/XDPaM)

Learning Curve (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6021.html#msg6021)

Rehash - Stable Voltage (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6039.html#msg6039)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 19, 2013, 09:33:59 AM
Adding More Caps (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6046.html#msg6046)

Magic Number (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6067.html#msg6067)

Arc Welding in Action (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6081.html#msg6081)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 19, 2013, 09:34:17 AM
Why is my voltage dropping? (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6121.html#msg6121)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beamrider on January 19, 2013, 10:48:46 AM
These kind of circuits are handy for all sorts of things.  One of these days I need to build a really beefy one, that's adjustable for output.  Spot welding is a good way to tack something together temporarily , and you can find all sorts of uses for a  quick  burst of high voltage like that.  Putting solder tabs on  batteries, de-whiskering old nicads, all sorts of stuff.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on January 19, 2013, 12:10:56 PM
There's some good videos of exploding capacitors on youtube.  Doesn't take all that much over the rating for that to happen.  Here's one;

http://www.eevblog.com/2009/11/04/eevblog-42-exploding-capacitors-in-high-speed/
Nice!

I've popped more than my share of them over the past few years.  Nothing quite as spectacular as the last one on there though.  Only takes a small slip with a probe and POP!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 19, 2013, 12:14:57 PM
Nice!

I've popped more than my share of them over the past few years.  Nothing quite as spectacular as the last one on there though.  Only takes a small slip with a probe and POP!

How are you making out w/ your welding?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: WarLion on January 19, 2013, 02:08:01 PM
ok this mine

using a kodak camera with a single cap of 80uf
best welding using 32awg nickel and 32awg kanthal best voltage was 120v
the voltage drop very quick

using a kodak camera with dual cap one 80uf and other 120uf
best welding was at 75v - 50v 32awg nickel -32awg kanthal
the voltage drop slow

i dont think i will add a third cap this work perfect im happy with only 200uf
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 19, 2013, 03:19:53 PM
ok this mine

using a kodak camera with a single cap of 80uf
best welding using 32awg nickel and 32awg kanthal best voltage was 120v
the voltage drop very quick

using a kodak camera with dual cap one 80uf and other 120uf
best welding was at 75v - 50v 32awg nickel -32awg kanthal
the voltage drop slow

i dont think i will add a third cap this work perfect im happy with only 200uf


Good WL, Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on January 19, 2013, 07:45:13 PM
How are you making out w/ your welding?
Finally got to sit down at the bench for a bit.  Did get is working consistently using 3 caps (2 unmarked...that I can read...and one 80uf).  Still flaky around 75 volts so jumped to about 90 and have been hitting a clean weld with pretty much every shot. (Yeah, I broke down and used the "helping hand" for the one end and magnifier...but my ass isn't getting zapped anymore either LMAO  Now I know how my dog feels when he hits that Invisible Fence...)

Thanks for all you help and tips man.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 20, 2013, 05:33:34 PM
Found this Photo-Flash Capacitor for a buck at: AllElectronics (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PPC-273/PHOTO-FLASH-CAPACITOR-270UF-330WV/1.html)

Also found the Flash board circuits for a buck at: FLASH ASSEMBLY (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/FSH-12/FLASH-ASSEMBLY/1.html)

Update:
Found another Photo-Flash Cap: Another Cap (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G19416)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 21, 2013, 11:20:22 AM
Since no one has mentioned it there is probably a reason, but I'm going to throw it out and let the more informed educate me.

Is there a reason why the camera flash circuits couldn't be used with a larger capacity slower discharge capacitor and limit the voltage being applied to 35v/etc to the capacitor?

The LM2577's are cheap enough, but the cameras can be free and I have a few to experiment with.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on January 21, 2013, 12:01:41 PM
Found this Photo-Flash Capacitor for a buck at: AllElectronics (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PPC-273/PHOTO-FLASH-CAPACITOR-270UF-330WV/1.html)

Also found the Flash board circuits for a buck at: FLASH ASSEMBLY (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/FSH-12/FLASH-ASSEMBLY/1.html)
Dude...that is an awesome find!

Best I could find on just 100-150uf caps was ~$3  Then still had the rest of the circuit to source...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 21, 2013, 12:26:52 PM
Since no one has mentioned it there is probably a reason, but I'm going to throw it out and let the more informed educate me.

Is there a reason why the camera flash circuits couldn't be used with a larger capacity slower discharge capacitor and limit the voltage being applied to 35v/etc to the capacitor?

The LM2577's are cheap enough, but the cameras can be free and I have a few to experiment with.

Yes you can. Example:
I made great welds with a 1000uF cap at 36v and with a 2200uF at 26v.
Does it matter what we use and at what volts? The job is done and the welds look similar.
If you want to buy parts than go ahead and do so... or go the cheapest route. Use what you have.

P.S.
I don't find the need to clean off the wires w/ alcohol any more. Just a tight and short connection will do it.

Update on capacitance and voltage:
I settled on using 340uF and at 74v - 76v
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 21, 2013, 12:33:33 PM
Yes you can. Example:
I made great welds with a 1000uF cap at 36v and with a 2200uF at 26v.
Does it matter what we use and at what volts? The job is done and the welds look similar.
If you want to buy parts than go ahead and do so... or go the cheapest route. Use what you have.

P.S.
I don't find the need to clean off the wires w/ alcohol any more. Just a tight and short connection will do it.

I have 1000uF 50v caps and I'm worried about applying to much voltage. Any suggestions to limiting that cheaply and easily?

If I understand correctly the LM2577 welders use a higher capacity capacitor that release the discharge slower and at a lower voltage. Basically creating a longer duration weld. I'm just trying to mimic that with the camera flash.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 21, 2013, 12:40:10 PM
I have 1000uF 50v caps and I'm worried about applying to much voltage. Any suggestions to limiting that cheaply and easily?

If I understand correctly the LM2577 welders use a higher capacity capacitor that release the discharge slower and at a lower voltage. Basically creating a longer duration weld. I'm just trying to mimic that with the camera flash.

The LM2577 does not discharge slower. A short across the cap is a short across the cap no matter what you are using to charge it with.
I used 50v caps and only went as high as 40v. 27v and 36v worked great. As far as limiting the max. I'd have to look into it.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 21, 2013, 12:48:23 PM
The LM2577 does not discharge slower. A short across the cap is a short across the cap no matter what you are using to charge it with.
I used 50v caps and only went as high as 40v. 27v and 36v worked great. As far as limiting the max. I'd have to look into it.

Easy on the button for now then :D

So to clarify my muddled understanding....would there be a difference in using an LM2577 and 1000uF cap at 36V than a camera flash circuit with a 1000uF cap at 36V?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 21, 2013, 12:52:46 PM
No matter what device that you are using to make welds, the important thing to do is to make sure the wire is TIGHTLY held in the clips.
Use quality clips with a strong spring tension. Keep the exposed wire short. And also important is your KNACK of touching the over-lapped wires together.
I've seen crappy welds with the Tsaf when Diver was first using it. He eventually perfected his hand skill.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 21, 2013, 01:07:23 PM
No matter what device that you are using to make welds, the important thing to do is to make sure the wire is TIGHTLY held in the clips.
Use quality clips with a strong spring tension. Keep the exposed wire short. And also important is your KNACK of touching the over-lapped wires together.
I've seen crappy welds with the Tsaf when Diver was first using it. He eventually perfected his hand skill.

I agree....and I am perfectly happy with my 340uF welder....I'm just waiting on good NR wire

And you already answered my question with "a short across a cap is a short across a cap" regardless of LM2577 or camera flash.

I have been trying to come up with something to eliminate the human element, but haven't come up with anything good yet.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Jellyfish on January 21, 2013, 01:08:25 PM
The LM2577 does not discharge slower. A short across the cap is a short across the cap no matter what you are using to charge it with.
I used 50v caps and only went as high as 40v. 27v and 36v worked great. As far as limiting the max. I'd have to look into it.

Hi Breaktru, I'm a moron at this stuff...but I'm good at following directions and I know how to solder. But I've been piecing info together from here and the other forum. Over there, someone mentioned the use of a Zener Diode to sort of limit voltage. Could something like that be used with the camera boards and 50 V caps to safely limit the voltage?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 21, 2013, 01:54:41 PM
Hi Breaktru, I'm a moron at this stuff...but I'm good at following directions and I know how to solder. But I've been piecing info together from here and the other forum. Over there, someone mentioned the use of a Zener Diode to sort of limit voltage. Could something like that be used with the camera boards and 50 V caps to safely limit the voltage?

You can make a Zener Voltage Regulator using this calculator: Zener Calculator (http://www.reuk.co.uk/Zener-Diode-Voltage-Regulator.htm)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 22, 2013, 12:34:50 PM
Using a strong spring clip is vital for a good weld. The smaller clips with the flat nose in the photos attached caused unsuccessful welds every time due to their weak tension. The stronger clips are alligator clips which I solder filled and filed for a flat surface.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 22, 2013, 01:28:37 PM
You calling my clips wussy  :laughing2:

I have been thinking about rigging up something like the below. The bottom post would be fixed, and thinking the top post could be held down and a switch added to release the charge....or maybe just a swift bonk on the center post????

food for thought anyway....I know for me that with good eyes and sometimes shaky hands getting the perfect wire touch is a pita.

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/ScreenShot566.jpg)  (http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/ScreenShot567.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 22, 2013, 02:19:48 PM
You calling my clips wussy  :laughing2:

I have been thinking about rigging up something like the below. The bottom post would be fixed, and thinking the top post could be held down and a switch added to release the charge....or maybe just a swift bonk on the center post????

food for thought anyway....I know for me that with good eyes and sometimes shaky hands getting the perfect wire touch is a pita.


That looks like and excellent idea Bradley. Could be the foolproof prototype. Now build it and let's know.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on January 22, 2013, 10:23:07 PM
I just have to say that (for tonight at least), I love Walmart...  She asked how many I wanted so I told her to just fill the bag.  In scavenging mode now...

(http://ubuntuone.com/6py2vzY50vjKZDmZSyfVcE)


ETA - I'm hoping to salvage one of the better Kodak housings for....well a housing  :rockin smiley:



2nd ETA - Just for giggles earlier I measured the juice coming off the transformer and two different units both output 286 volts, so there is a cap of sorts to what these flash circuits can do.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 23, 2013, 07:57:18 AM
I just have to say that (for tonight at least), I love Walmart...  She asked how many I wanted so I told her to just fill the bag.  In scavenging mode now...

ETA - I'm hoping to salvage one of the better Kodak housings for....well a housing  :rockin smiley:

2nd ETA - Just for giggles earlier I measured the juice coming off the transformer and two different units both output 286 volts, so there is a cap of sorts to what these flash circuits can do.

Looks like you hit the jackpot.... yeah!
Be careful opening them. Some caps may be charged.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: sovran on January 23, 2013, 09:53:03 AM
Just as an FYI

Like most have indicated the fuji doesn't have any plain markings (Breaktru reported finding out they are 120uF)

The Polaroid, Westen Family, and Kodak cameras I have been inside of, all have labeled 120uf 330v caps

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/E034E3B0-AB17-4507-BA87-0DE75DDB9E02-14459-000006B03271115E.jpg)

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/6654885B-BA98-49AA-8A0A-0DCE35CE5EC5-14459-000006B0342667C5.jpg)

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/0228E136-3C87-435E-A56D-19C75A904214-14459-000006B03575EB44.jpg)

help me out a bit here. I have the fuji. the two little ribbon contacts, was originally hooked to the charge function. are these closed then just install a momentary switch on one leg of the cap to charge? then touch the alligator clips attached to the cap to discharge?  This thread has gotten too long for us simpletons. :)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: sovran on January 23, 2013, 09:57:37 AM
Looks like you hit the jackpot.... yeah!
Be careful opening them. Some caps may be charged.

Some? I have opened 3 so far and luckily I havent been caught in the arc. all 3 have discharged. I almost cant wait.... almost.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 23, 2013, 10:06:14 AM
Some? I have opened 3 so far and luckily I havent been caught in the arc. all 3 have discharged. I almost cant wait.... almost.
I had 10 and one zapped me so I started measuring at the cap and 3 had over 200 volts still on the caps.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 23, 2013, 10:19:14 AM
help me out a bit here. I have the fuji. the two little ribbon contacts, was originally hooked to the charge function. are these closed then just install a momentary switch on one leg of the cap to charge? then touch the alligator clips attached to the cap to discharge?  This thread has gotten too long for us simpletons. :)

I linked the time line to 7:47 to show where the contact wires go: http://youtu.be/ydwHahAbw2A?t=7m47s
Switch does not go on the cap.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 23, 2013, 10:26:19 AM
help me out a bit here. I have the fuji. the two little ribbon contacts, was originally hooked to the charge function. are these closed then just install a momentary switch on one leg of the cap to charge? then touch the alligator clips attached to the cap to discharge?  This thread has gotten too long for us simpletons. :)

I wish I had pics of the other side of the PCB's or at home with my stockpile but it sounds like you have the AA Fuji (there are few more differences between the AA and AAA than I originally thought). If memory serves the AA Fuji had a couple pads with multiple solder lines...something like this ||||    ||||....and the AAA have a couple of wires running to a couple of solder points on the PCB. If its a AA Fuji wire one side of your switch to one of the |||| pads and the other side to the other |||| pad, if its a AAA Fuji then one side to one of the solder points and the other to the other.

If this doesn't help I can take pics later this afternoon.

Eidt....Like breaktru shows above /|\....On a AAA Fuji wire the momentary switch to the yellow/? wire location and the blue/green wire location.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on January 23, 2013, 11:00:48 AM
Looks like you hit the jackpot.... yeah!
Be careful opening them. Some caps may be charged.
Yeah. I managed to get most of them opened with just one little zap. It was when I was sorting and trying to make sure they were discharged that I got nailed good a few times. DO NOT USE THE BATTERY TERMINAL AS A HANDLE. I'm still trying to figure out WTF was getting me by holding that copper strip and using pliers to short a 10k resistor to drain the caps.

help me out a bit here. I have the fuji. the two little ribbon contacts, was originally hooked to the charge function. are these closed then just install a momentary switch on one leg of the cap to charge? then touch the alligator clips attached to the cap to discharge?  This thread has gotten too long for us simpletons. :)
I'll try and get some closeups of the Fujis when I get home. Your momentary (charge switch) goes between the 2 pads that are like 3 or 4 parallel lines bunched up. There was a copper strip in the front half of the case that shorted those to charge the flash.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: MidnighToker on January 23, 2013, 12:36:58 PM
I wish I had pics of the other side of the PCB's or at home with my stockpile but it sounds like you have the AA Fuji (there are few more differences between the AA and AAA than I originally thought). If memory serves the AA Fuji had a couple pads with multiple solder lines...something like this ||||    ||||....and the AAA have a couple of wires running to a couple of solder points on the PCB. If its a AA Fuji wire one side of your switch to one of the |||| pads and the other side to the other |||| pad, if its a AAA Fuji then one side to one of the solder points and the other to the other.

If this doesn't help I can take pics later this afternoon.

Eidt....Like breaktru shows above /|\....On a AAA Fuji wire the momentary switch to the yellow/? wire location and the blue/green wire location.
Now I see where there's some confusion.

There are TWO  (that I know of ATM) different Fuji boards.  One is using a AAA battery (which I believe is the one you are using bapgood.) and the the other is using a AA.  Seems that the AA model is the one that got the 120uf caps and the AAA got the 80uf ones.

This is the AAA version (that I have at least).  First pic is what it looks like when you first remove it, and the second shows the parallel lines for one side of the switch and I stuck a red wire stub where the other side goes. (Just above the "LM" in Fujufilm
(http://ubuntuone.com/1U1QBtPxdu5FvmJFOEmsnq)

(http://ubuntuone.com/5XShSDsf5erL4hDBfwlJ0C)



And the AA version is OF COURSE completely different...... (momentary "charge" switch goes on each side of the groups of parallel lines)
(http://ubuntuone.com/7dA3gwn87H7SBlJ7942qQ0)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: bapgood on January 23, 2013, 12:43:14 PM
One is using a AAA battery (which I believe is the one you are using bapgood.)

I'm actually using one of each.

I'll see your 32 and raise you 8  :D

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/2C29B8D1-6873-44AA-BA1F-9FB6E0A504C2-14459-000006BBDEDD5654.jpg)

I have been running the AA on 3.3 volts to see how it does. I would eventually like to have it running of a pc power supply converted to a bench unit.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Coil Wire Arc Welding
Post by: MidnighToker on January 23, 2013, 02:02:25 PM
I'm actually using one of each.

I'll see your 32 and raise you 8  :D

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/2C29B8D1-6873-44AA-BA1F-9FB6E0A504C2-14459-000006BBDEDD5654.jpg)

I have been running the AA on 3.3 volts to see how it does. I would eventually like to have it running of a pc power supply converted to a bench unit.
NICE!

I've actually been running them @ 1.2v on NiMH with iffy luck.  Will have to try a slightly drained Li-ion to see if that does any better.  Thinking it'll simply charge it faster  >:(

(I actually just keep ripping the 80uf caps off and stacking them with the 120's....don't think I've tried 4 yet :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: sovran on January 23, 2013, 02:22:09 PM
I have the AA model. In midnighttokers last pic, in the bottom right you can barely make out the 2 ribbon contacts I was referring to. Understand I have never used a disposable camera but the case said lift for continuous flash which activated these contacts. I understand you cant have continuous flash since it takes time for cap to charge. What do you do with these contacts? Open or closed?

Breakthru I will have to watch that clip several times when not at work. I am pretty sure where one of the wires went but not the other, assuming this is the same board. When I get home I will solder the other two caps in parallel then rewatch the vid until I get it. Thank you all.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 23, 2013, 03:07:13 PM
I have the AA model. In midnighttokers last pic, in the bottom right you can barely make out the 2 ribbon contacts I was referring to. Understand I have never used a disposable camera but the case said lift for continuous flash which activated these contacts. I understand you cant have continuous flash since it takes time for cap to charge. What do you do with these contacts? Open or closed?

Breakthru I will have to watch that clip several times when not at work. I am pretty sure where one of the wires went but not the other, assuming this is the same board. When I get home I will solder the other two caps in parallel then rewatch the vid until I get it. Thank you all.

sovran, that is why you solder one side of the momentary switch to one of the pads and the other side of the switch to the other pad. That way when you push the momentary switch its only charging while your pushing it and stops when you let off, you do this while watching the meter to see what voltage your at.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on January 23, 2013, 03:09:35 PM
I have the AA model. In midnighttokers last pic, in the bottom right you can barely make out the 2 ribbon contacts I was referring to. Understand I have never used a disposable camera but the case said lift for continuous flash which activated these contacts. I understand you cant have continuous flash since it takes time for cap to charge. What do you do with these contacts? Open or closed?

Breakthru I will have to watch that clip several times when not at work. I am pretty sure where one of the wires went but not the other, assuming this is the same board. When I get home I will solder the other two caps in parallel then rewatch the vid until I get it. Thank you all.
If I'm understanding you correctly, I think you're asking about what to do with those contacts after you're wiring you're final setup???

Remove them. That is where you would put your momentary charge switch.

(I honestly have no clue what that "continuous change" meant other than that once the caps are "full", they really won't draw any more current than the transformer is putting out, so it's just like holding the charge switch down.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: sovran on January 23, 2013, 03:10:17 PM
OK so leave those contacts open and by soldering to the pads you are bypassing that part of the circuit if I understand correctly.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 23, 2013, 03:19:09 PM
Sovran, sorry I didn't read close enough when you said last pic bottom right.....

You are talking about these things I believe. These are cut off and not used, they are what release the capacitor charge into the flash bulb on the camera.

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/ScreenShot572.jpg)

These are the pads for wiring the momentary switch to. Sorry my square got a little big, but the vertical line pads.

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/ScreenShot573.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 23, 2013, 03:28:33 PM
Sovran, sorry I didn't read close enough when you said last pic bottom right.....

You are talking about these things I believe. These are cut off and not used, they are what release the capacitor charge into the flash bulb on the camera.

These are the pads for wiring the momentary switch to. Sorry my square got a little big, but the vertical line pads.

I concur... yes em

The extended contacts trigger the flash bulb which we are not using. You can leave it on the board and just cut off the copper tangs.
The momentary/charge switch which is wired to the pads will charge the caps.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 23, 2013, 06:20:03 PM
I lied earlier about the AAA Fuji having wires, it actually has a clip.

I will try to show the differences and the connections.

The one on the left is the AAA Fuji....The right is the AA Fuji

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/A2D96A34-287D-402E-8631-DE25EF1DD297-26037-000008EAA7472219.jpg)


Here is the AAA...Left to Right...New - Battery and charge clips removed - orange wires to momentary switch, red to battery positive, black to battery negative

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/B8E04F1D-D27E-441D-B542-E3E14B0F775B-26037-000008EAAA4C0874.jpg)


Here is the AA...Left to Right...New - Battery clips removed (some have left on the battery clips and used them) - brown wires to momentary switch, red to battery positive, black to battery negative

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/B4BBDB7E-D054-44E3-8B4E-A145C0044DD0-26037-000008EAA8EBDD5A.jpg)


Just a note the battery + and - are opposite relative to the board orientation between the AA and AAA Fuji
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: sovran on January 23, 2013, 06:50:22 PM
Thanks. I got this now. Plenty of time to to practice my wire welding skills while I wait for a terminator.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 25, 2013, 10:52:03 AM
Capacitor voltage is being drained due to the Low Input Impedance of the Digital Meters I bought.
A 10M or more input impedance is recommended.
The two meters were connected separately for the test. The video show two together.
Meters were from www.wonmeter.com I don't recommend them.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guuOceE0t0k&feature=youtu.be

I calculated the input impedance of the two meters.
The top meter 0-100v is 76k
The bottom 0-333.3v is 985k
See HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6121.html#msg6121) for details.

Update:
By adding a resistor in series with the Low Input Impedance of the panel meter, you can prevent bleed down of the cap voltage.
Calculate the resistor to match your DMM voltage to the panel meter. Total resistance should be around 10M ohm. I used the 0-333.3v meter and got it to read 7.50v which on the DMM is really 75v.
The internal input impedance of 985k for the PM is close to a 1M ohm so adding approximately 9M ohm will do it. Trial and error was used to get accurate results.

This is the meter I use for my OHM and Volt Welder (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg9175.html#msg9175). It is a 100M ohm High input impedance: DIGITAL PANEL METER, LCD,2.7 INCH x 1.7 INCH (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2131135&catalogId=10001&CID=MERCH)
You will also need this: Used to finely tune your panel meter. (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=2076121)

USER MANUAL (http://www.vellemanusa.com/downloads/1/pmlcdpmlcdlpmledpmled5gbnlfresd.pdf)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 25, 2013, 11:32:52 AM
Capacitor voltage is being drained due to the Low Input Impedance of the Digital Meters.
A 10M or more input impedance is recommended.
The two meters were connected separately for the test. The video show two together.
Meters were from www.wonmeter.com

Bummer  :thumbsdwn2:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Papa Hoyt on January 25, 2013, 12:31:35 PM
So is there anyway off adding impedance without affecting voltage reading? I am pretty sure the answer will be short.........

So where can we get these meters with 10m or more impedance?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 25, 2013, 12:45:25 PM
So is there anyway off adding impedance without affecting voltage reading? I am pretty sure the answer will be short.........

So where can we get these meters with 10m or more impedance?

I use this $20 dmm from harbor freight (http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-digital-multimeter-37772.html) and it works and seems decent all around. Its just a dmm.....I'm also waiting for breaktru to find a good meter/display  :yes"
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 25, 2013, 01:32:36 PM
So is there anyway off adding impedance without affecting voltage reading? I am pretty sure the answer will be short.........

So where can we get these meters with 10m or more impedance?

The answer is short... NO. without affecting the voltage reading.
However, by adding a resistor in series to the meter, I was able to get the meter very stable with NO drop. The consequence is an incorrect LOW reading. If you can deal with that, it will work. I tried to go as low as I can. A 1 meg ohm was N/G so I used two 10megs in parallel with the resulting resistance of 5 meg. Worked good. So now my 75.00v shows as 12.00v on the meter.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Papa Hoyt on January 25, 2013, 01:51:10 PM
I would rather just buy a meter that will work so I can build a self contained unit.

if anyone finds one I am sure that others would like this as well and if i find one then I will be sure to post it right here
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on January 25, 2013, 06:13:23 PM
Capacitor voltage is being drained due to the Low Input Impedance of the Digital Meters.
A 10M or more input impedance is recommended.
The two meters were connected separately for the test. The video show two together.
Meters were from www.wonmeter.com


I calculated the input impedance of the two meters.
The top meter 0-100v is 76k
The bottom 0-333.3v is 985k
This ALMOST makes me want to check my DMMs to see where they are, but as the drop off stops after a few that makes too much extra work.  Can spend that time dissecting and breaking so many other things...... (And with the price tag they carried, they'd BETTER be stable enough dammit!)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 26, 2013, 04:53:18 PM
It's really approximately 74.7v with a 10meg resistor in series w/ the panel meter which is now very stable and prevents cap bleed down. Meter had a low input impedance of less than 1M ohm.

(http://breaktru.com/ecig/sparky_meter.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 27, 2013, 08:11:44 AM
This video was in the Simplified Electronics, Easy Tutorial section of this forum:

Video:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoWMF3VkI6U>
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: charming on January 28, 2013, 02:23:00 PM
I made a Sparkomatic with a camera flash rather than a dc converter. It's cheap and easy and works great. I do not see why some are bent on voltage, capacitance, spark flash, yada, yada yada. I put the wires together and zap. I made a coil. It's as easy as that. Thanks buddy.
Oh, I used one extra cap like you did. Basically I followed your instructions.  :thankyou:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 28, 2013, 05:06:25 PM
Successful welds one after the other. Can't be any easier.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6csTiN9nM00&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: kortt on January 29, 2013, 03:12:56 PM
Great job!  Pretty fine work lining those wires up by the looks ....I'd have to do it under the cc tv magnifier lol.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 29, 2013, 05:00:10 PM
Great job!  Pretty fine work lining those wires up by the looks ....I'd have to do it under the cc tv magnifier lol.

Thanks, had to do it by eye too. Got to hook up my laptop to the camera next time so I can see it magnified like shown in the video.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: kortt on January 29, 2013, 06:07:28 PM
Thanks, had to do it by eye too. Got to hook up my laptop to the camera next time so I can see it magnified like shown in the video.

There's probably a way to make some sort of fixture that will hold the wire in place.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 29, 2013, 06:21:31 PM
There's probably a way to make some sort of fixture that will hold the wire in place.

We thought about it and some had good ideas but no one has actually made one. I have one end secured in a fixed clip and the other I use two hands while braced against my bench. Still a bit shaky but better.

I did make something out of the hollow of a Bic Pen with two bolts. One on top, one on the bottom with leads attached. A pin hole in the middle of the pen tube for the wires. I rammed the top bolt down to make contact for welding. Didn't work too good.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 30, 2013, 01:02:29 PM
Another Spark-O-Matic w/ multi-function binding posts.
See attached............
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on January 30, 2013, 01:10:38 PM
Another Spark-O-Matic w/ multi-function binding posts.
See attached............

Now your just getting fancy  :yes"....but where is the display fancy pants  :Thinking:

Haha looks good
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 30, 2013, 01:17:40 PM
Now your just getting fancy  :yes"....but where is the display fancy pants  :Thinking:

Haha looks good

Ha, ha, keeping costs down. This is not for me.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: xMackx on January 30, 2013, 02:59:11 PM
Can't wait to try making one of these things for myself when i get a camera.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 30, 2013, 03:12:42 PM
Can't wait to try making one of these things for myself when i get a camera.
Hey Mack, welcome to the forum. I'm sure you will enjoy making and using it.
Picked up a few more freebie cameras at the local chain pharmacy.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 30, 2013, 03:12:55 PM
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL33GCAicf4&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: kortt on January 30, 2013, 03:28:45 PM
Just getting better and better!  :rockin smiley:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on January 31, 2013, 11:13:23 AM
Dammit!!!  I can NOT get any decent welds on this.  Gotta get some nickel NR wire to try.  I've tried 5 different types of clips, varying the voltage, adding/removing caps.  Still always get this crappy little spot weld that won't hold for shit.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 31, 2013, 11:29:13 AM
Dammit!!!  I can NOT get any decent welds on this.  Gotta get some nickel NR wire to try.  I've tried 5 different types of clips, varying the voltage, adding/removing caps.  Still always get this crappy little spot weld that won't hold for $#!+.

Here is what I found and reconfirmed it with making more Spark-O's. The Capacitance that works is exactly 340uF. Not more, Not less. I've tried it. The voltage that works is 74v-75v. Not higher not lower. Not even by one volt. Depending on your meter calibration it might be slightly different.

Oh.. forgot to mention. I've used FujiFilm and Kodak and both results the same.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: ChainVaper on January 31, 2013, 05:40:47 PM
Here is what I found and reconfirmed it with making more Spark-O's. The Capacitance that works is exactly 340uF. Not more, Not less. I've tried it. The voltage that works is 74v-75v. Not higher not lower. Not even by one volt. Depending on your meter calibration it might be slightly different.

Oh.. forgot to mention. I've used FujiFilm and Kodak and both results the same.

I was going crazy trying to weld. I had given up but now I can do it too. Thanks Dave. I did exactly as you mentioned and Wa-La... success!
Good thing I had extra cameras. Got about 5 from a photo Dev store.
And also some practice helped. Got my stock of coils now and ready to go.

Sorry Dave, I've been stalking these threads and haven't logged on since Sept. While the forum was in maintenance mode, I read your notice about contributing to the forum by logging on and posting. Well here it is and thank you for all your hard work on this wonderful forum.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: urquidezj on January 31, 2013, 08:30:10 PM
awesome progress breaktru
good thing i got midnight toker on this, cuz i have ZERO idea whats going on here hehe, threw the headache on him.
dam i havent posted since i started vaping lol  :laughing2:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 31, 2013, 09:45:36 PM
awesome progress breaktru
good thing i got midnight toker on this, cuz i have ZERO idea whats going on here hehe, threw the headache on him.
dam i havent posted since i started vaping lol  :laughing2:

Good to see you participating. We will try to get Midnight to get it down pat. Hey Toker, can you at least weld Nichrome to Nichrome or Kanthal to Kanthal as a test?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 01, 2013, 10:10:26 AM
I just added another schematic/drawing for the Kodak boards at: Kodak type boards (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg5990.html#msg5990) Log on to see images.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on February 01, 2013, 12:26:41 PM
Good to see you participating. We will try to get Midnight to get it down pat. Hey Toker, can you at least weld Nichrome to Nichrome or Kanthal to Kanthal as a test?
Haven't tried that.

Gonna redo one of the test units to 340....wait...how the hell do you hit 340 with 80's and 120's? (at least I THINK they're alll 80s and 120s) 200, 240, 280, 320, 360.....

Might have to wait until tomorrow unfortunately.   One daughter is having a birthday sleepover and I am (thankfully) taking the other to a concert.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: urquidezj on February 01, 2013, 12:34:21 PM
What concert you going to MT? One Direction?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on February 01, 2013, 12:43:54 PM
What concert you going to MT? One Direction?
Oh HELL no!!!!  I got dragged to friggin Demi Lovato that she won tickets to about 3 years ago (was still using my original 510 there :D ).  Thankfully her taste in music has changed.  Going to see Of Mice & Men.  Not a huge fan of post-hardcore (aka Screamo) but it's a hell of a lot better than that other crap.   :rockin smiley:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 01, 2013, 02:11:04 PM
Haven't tried that.

Gonna redo one of the test units to 340....wait...how the hell do you hit 340 with 80's and 120's? (at least I THINK they're alll 80s and 120s) 200, 240, 280, 320, 360.....

Might have to wait until tomorrow unfortunately.   One daughter is having a birthday sleepover and I am (thankfully) taking the other to a concert.

I had some w/ 100uF. So used (2) 120uF + (1) 100uF. Use (3)120uF's for 360uF or (2) 120uF + (1) 80uF for 320uF. It's close enough.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Papa Hoyt on February 01, 2013, 10:16:36 PM
Got my setup and testing done on the proto layout, now time to shorten wires and stuff into a project box.

I am getting great welds with awesome linear hold but once I start wrapping the wire around wick the torsion breaks the weld on one or both sides. any tips? maybe a touch to hot?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 02, 2013, 07:27:39 AM
Got my setup and testing done on the proto layout, now time to shorten wires and stuff into a project box.

I am getting great welds with awesome linear hold but once I start wrapping the wire around wick the torsion breaks the weld on one or both sides. any tips? maybe a touch to hot?

Is it the welds or is the wire breaking before the weld. If the welds, yes maybe ONE volt higher.

I experienced a break or two during wrapping on the soft silver. I realized during wrapping the silver was being bent a bit each turn around my mesh which caused the wire to snap off at the beginning of the weld. Silver may have softened further due to welding temp.
I now wrap by NOT tugging on the silver. I try to only handle it by the resistance wire.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on February 02, 2013, 09:06:13 PM
Have been running 320 or 360 on test units.  Kanthal to kanthal holds decent.  The silver to kanthal seems to weld fine, but just like Papa said, they welds just won't hold.  I haven't even tried to wrap any coils because just the test pulls are weak enough that I know they will break as soon as I finish a coil :/

Just ordered some nickel wire so will see if that does any better (so Urq can get off my ass LOL)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: urquidezj on February 02, 2013, 09:20:37 PM
Hey man I hooked u up with a link for nickel wire! Hehe
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 02, 2013, 09:35:48 PM
Have been running 320 or 360 on test units.  Kanthal to kanthal holds decent.  The silver to kanthal seems to weld fine, but just like Papa said, they welds just won't hold.  I haven't even tried to wrap any coils because just the test pulls are weak enough that I know they will break as soon as I finish a coil :/

Just ordered some nickel wire so will see if that does any better (so Urq can get off my ass LOL)

Try coming up a volt. Took awhile for me to find the perfect voltage. Also, before I found the right voltage I tried spot welding the tip of a copper strand to the sides of the two adjacent wires for extra holding. That reinforced the weld. Sort of like a welding rod in Arc Welding.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 02, 2013, 09:38:45 PM
Hey man I hooked u up with a link for nickel wire! Hehe

Haven't tried nickel yet. How's that working out?
I've used a copper strand that worked. Had to lower the voltage a little bit.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: urquidezj on February 02, 2013, 09:48:17 PM
I haven't personally tried it but since its not as soft and brittle as silver wire, which can break while doing the twist method, I imagine it will make a stronger bond. Being it won't "melt" under I high bolted spark.
This is just a theory in my head though,
I notice no difference in hit between the two tbh
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Papa Hoyt on February 04, 2013, 06:01:43 AM
I am getting strong welds with 30AWG K A-1 and 30AWG nickel wire and I can yank them away from each other and they hold but the wrapping applies torsion to the weld point and that is when I experience failures.

Have not found a good V for silver yet the silver seems to melt away or burn right off at 75V area. will practice more this week and see what I find out.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 04, 2013, 11:08:28 AM
Winding a coil and avoiding snapping of wires.
The welds are strong. Flexing the wires too many times will break the wire before the weld and NOT the weld.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-YlAcrEyhA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-YlAcrEyhA)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on February 04, 2013, 06:04:46 PM
Winding a coil and avoiding snapping of wires.

Are you wrapping that on mesh or just a tool you use to build the coil?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 04, 2013, 06:18:44 PM
Are you wrapping that on mesh or just a tool you use to build the coil?

On Mesh. I didn't take the time to oxidize it. Just did it as a demo
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on February 04, 2013, 09:23:29 PM
On Mesh. I didn't take the time to oxidize it. Just did it as a demo
LOL...thought it looked a bit shiny.  I see what you're getting at though.  I might have to break down and finally use the "paper clip tool" to wrap a coil and avoid the "torque".  TBH I have not even tried wrapping one of these simply because I didn't have enough faith in the welds.  Think I need to backtrack a bit to where I was getting ALMOST tolerable welds.  Still might hold out for the nickel wire though....guess it depends on my mood later on when everyone normal goes to sleep....
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 05, 2013, 08:51:39 AM
VTTV w/ Gary Dibley. Gary makes a Spark-0-Matic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfe5sWp1n68 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfe5sWp1n68)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on February 05, 2013, 11:21:25 AM
VTTV w/ Gary Dibley. Gary makes a Spark-0-Matic

Thats pretty dang cool.....congrats to all the founders

Breaktru....I'm still very jealous of your perfect touch abaility....because for me its hit and miss :wallbash:

On a side note....using my LM2577 unit with 2x4700uF caps and 24v-27v and using my solid base, clamped wires, wand technique I was finally able to get a robust weld of 32g nickel and 30g kanthal. Strong enough that I couldn't pull it apart and then I held the kanthal in some pliers about 1/4" or so from the weld and wrapped the NR around the needle nose pliers pulling pretty gd hard and the weld held........but when I unwrapped and tried again the nickel wire broke at the weld, the weld held but created a rigid bend point  :wallbash:

I don't have any silver to play with....But I'm thinking some 28g or 30g nickel would be pretty robust and may hold up better to handling.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 05, 2013, 11:51:16 AM
Thats pretty dang cool.....congrats to all the founders

Breaktru....I'm still very jealous of your perfect touch abaility....because for me its hit and miss :wallbash:

On a side note....using my LM2577 unit with 2x4700uF caps and 24v-27v and using my solid base, clamped wires, wand technique I was finally able to get a robust weld of 32g nickel and 30g kanthal. Strong enough that I couldn't pull it apart and then I held the kanthal in some pliers about 1/4" or so from the weld and wrapped the NR around the needle nose pliers pulling pretty gd hard and the weld held........but when I unwrapped and tried again the nickel wire broke at the weld, the weld held but created a rigid bend point  :wallbash:

I don't have any silver to play with....But I'm thinking some 28g or 30g nickel would be pretty robust and may hold up better to handling.

Nice bap, sounds like you found your niche welder.
I haven't done anything with my step up converter. Don't know what to call it. The part number on the regulator has been scratched off. Those sly Chinese folks don't want anyone to know what it is.
I have 10' of silver so that should last me a bit. When I get around to it I'll try nickel. Copper strand works fine. Any thing NR will do for the short lengths we need.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on February 05, 2013, 12:19:43 PM
I thought this was interesting and worth sharing...

(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l577/bapgood1/ScreenShot589_zps9d0119ef.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 05, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I thought this was interesting and worth sharing...

Good find bap, I have to try that. Put the NR on the positive clip and the Kanthal/Nichrome on the neg clip.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on February 05, 2013, 07:20:53 PM
I thought this was interesting and worth sharing...
Awesome find!  Will have to go look at my setups in a bit and see if I have that backwards....might be able to get something usable after all.  Gotta give some copper strands a go too.  Have 2 RBAs that are in desperate need of new coils and have been holding out until I nailed this.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 05, 2013, 07:29:02 PM
It's weird because I was getting good welds doing it backwards. I was using the NR on the Neg clip. Perhaps it will be better welds the right way.  :laughing2:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 11, 2013, 04:03:38 PM
I've been asked several times, how do you light an LED with a single AA battery. The answer is: A Joule Thief.  A White or Blue LED requires a forward voltage of approximately 3.3v yet you can power it with a single AA battery with 0.3v to 1.6v.
The LED is SUPER bright and will light even when the battery is considered "DEAD".
It's a very simple circuit and the parts I had on hand.
A Blue or White LED
2N3904 Transistor or equivalent
1k Resistor (Brown-Black-Red)
Ferrite Toroid core, taken from an old PC power supply. Wires were removed and rewound as shown below.
2 Thin wire, two colors. I used 28ga
See attached photos. (You must be logged on to see photos.)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: jbs on February 23, 2013, 11:27:03 AM
Out of pure curiosity.
Would it be possible to use Spark-O-Matic for welding lipo battery tabs or it just does not have enough 'kick' in it?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 23, 2013, 12:26:51 PM
Out of pure curiosity.
Would it be possible to use Spark-O-Matic for welding lipo battery tabs or it just does not have enough 'kick' in it?

I tried w/ the voltage cranked to 340 volts using a piece of roofing flashing and two nails as probes. It did not fully go thru the flashing. Perhaps with the right material. The flashing was too thick.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: jbs on February 23, 2013, 12:53:28 PM
I don't know much about electronics and i am not aware of what that disposable camera pcb is capable of. So anything i am going to say is only an assumption.

The pcb does have a trigger to release the flash. If it works as i think it does than it could be used as a trigger for welding.
The question is, is it just a matter of bigger caps and voltage to weld anything thicker than kanthal and silver wire.
And is the pcb capable of charging bigger caps?

I have just seen a diy cap arc welder but the guy was using 2 x 1F caps and 15volts transformer to charge them.
I am by no means desperate or in need to build such thing but i have to admit that having handy dandy lipo tab, coil welder wold be awesome .

Cheers
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 23, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
I don't know much about electronics and i am not aware of what that disposable camera pcb is capable of. So anything i am going to say is only an assumption.

The pcb does have a trigger to release the flash. If it works as i think it does than it could be used as a trigger for welding.
The question is, is it just a matter of bigger caps and voltage to weld anything thicker than kanthal and silver wire.
And is the pcb capable of charging bigger caps?

I have just seen a diy cap arc welder but the guy was using 2 x 1F caps and 15volts transformer to charge them.
I am by no means desperate or in need to build such thing but i have to admit that having handy dandy lipo tab, coil welder wold be awesome .

Cheers

The higher the voltage, the lower the Cap value. I've seen tab welders w/ 1 Farad and 12v.
I haven't tried a fire button but I imagine using the fire button with the probe leads off the Xeon flash bulb instead of off the cap might work.
If I get some time, I might try it. Still would need the right battery tabs. Found them here: Battery TABS (http://sunstoneengineering.com/site/pages/sales/#weld_mat)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: CraigHB on February 23, 2013, 04:46:52 PM
The flash circuit does not deliver enough current.  You need a capacitive discharge welder like this;

http://ledhacks.com/power/battery_tab_welder.htm

I really have no issue soldering the LiPo tabs, can even solder wires on to the round cells.  Still, welding is better since there's very little chance of damaging the battery.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: jbs on February 23, 2013, 05:08:55 PM
Thanks for the info.

In every day life i have no need of soldering lipos not to mention welding them. I don't solder every day and that's why i stick to el cheapo 30 watt solder iron.
I am aware of your point of view on cheap soldering irons, dmm etc.
I was planing to use lipo instead of well proven aw imr 18490 for my dna 12 mod but the lack of right tool for the job and involved risk simply put me off.

Cheers.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: CraigHB on February 24, 2013, 02:04:54 AM
I understand.  I would also advise against soldering cells of any kind with one of those cheapo 30W soldering pencils.  It' pretty critical to properly control temperature.  In that case, a capacitive welder would be a better option if you don't have a good soldering station.

If you can happen across one of those big capacitor arrays for car stereos, and you happen to have a car battery charger, you can make a battery tab welder damn near for free, at least a lot cheaper than a good soldering station.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: jbs on February 24, 2013, 06:19:21 AM
Quote
I understand.  I would also advise against soldering cells of any kind with one of those cheapo 30W soldering pencils.  It' pretty critical to properly control temperature.  In that case, a capacitive welder would be a better option if you don't have a good soldering station.

If you can happen across one of those big capacitor arrays for car stereos, and you happen to have a car battery charger, you can make a battery tab welder damn near for free, at least a lot cheaper than a good soldering station.

That was precisely my thinking and i was wishing, it could happen on a... let's say... a... miniature scale  :laughing2:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on February 25, 2013, 04:56:02 PM
Haven't checked in for a bit so thought  I throw an update up.

I took a break from this for a while and just got back to it.  Was able to get "usable" welds with 30ga Kanthal and 32 ga nickel NR on a unit using 3 80uf and 1 120uf (360uf total) charged to just over 75 volts.  I have a trickle drain (maybe  volts/sec), most likely from the meter, so I've been trying to charge to around 77-78 to give me a few to line up the wires.

I am still only getting a spot weld at the end of one wire or the other that does not really have much strength.  Not nearly the strength that I am seeing in breaktru's videos.  But this setup was able to get me up and running.  I've been slacking and the coils on my all my RBAs were anywhere between 1 and 4 months old.  I'd just dry burn every 2-3 days or so to keep them going fairly strong.  The wicks were still getting just a wee bit skanky though.  Good thing that I pretty much stick with tobacco based juice mixed with peach/cherry/pina colada sometimes.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 25, 2013, 05:45:06 PM
Haven't checked in for a bit so thought  I throw an update up.

I took a break from this for a while and just got back to it.  Was able to get "usable" welds with 30ga Kanthal and 32 ga nickel NR on a unit using 3 80uf and 1 120uf (360uf total) charged to just over 75 volts.  I have a trickle drain (maybe  volts/sec), most likely from the meter, so I've been trying to charge to around 77-78 to give me a few to line up the wires.

I am still only getting a spot weld at the end of one wire or the other that does not really have much strength.  Not nearly the strength that I am seeing in breaktru's videos.  But this setup was able to get me up and running.  I've been slacking and the coils on my all my RBAs were anywhere between 1 and 4 months old.  I'd just dry burn every 2-3 days or so to keep them going fairly strong.  The wicks were still getting just a wee bit skanky though.  Good thing that I pretty much stick with tobacco based juice mixed with peach/cherry/pina colada sometimes.

Sounds like your welding results are getting better.

I stopped using the silver. The welds were great but the silver is fine .999 which is extremely soft. It would occasional break before the weld and the weld would remain. I switched to copper strands pulled from heavier gauge wire. I used a micrometer to measure for 32ga to 30ga strands that weld pretty good to the 32ga Kanthal.

In the beginning, I found that if the voltage was dropping when I weld, a failed weld would result. When the voltage was stable, a perfect weld was achieved.
Maybe you can try to remove your meter when you hit your voltage mark.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: banshee on February 25, 2013, 06:37:06 PM
Sounds like your welding results are getting better.

I stopped using the silver. The welds were great but the silver is fine .999 which is extremely soft. It would occasional break before the weld and the weld would remain. I switched to copper strands pulled from heavier gauge wire. I used a micrometer to measure for 32ga to 30ga strands that weld pretty good to the 32ga Kanthal.

In the beginning, I found that if the voltage was dropping when I weld, a failed weld would result. When the voltage was stable, a perfect weld was achieved.
Maybe you can try to remove your meter when you hit your voltage mark.

Good idea, copper strands. Beats buying NR wire.

I tried your suggestion about getting my cheap meter to a 10M input impedance and it worked. I've been getting better welds and the voltage doesn't drop anymore. Input Impedance (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6121.html#msg6121).
I calculated my cheap meter input impedance using your link, to 1M. So I added 9M of resistance in series to make the total 10M. Now the meter is 10% difference which is easy to use. So if I want 75v, I fire the welder up to 7.5v. Work out great.  :thankyou:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: CraigHB on February 26, 2013, 02:22:22 AM
I stopped using the silver. The welds were great but the silver is fine .999 which is extremely soft. It would occasional break before the weld and the weld would remain. I switched to copper strands pulled from heavier gauge wire.

I don't get the deal with vendors selling so called non-resistance wire.  Doesn't make much sense to me when you can go down to the local hardware store and buy stranded wire in whatever gauge to get individual strands with the preferred thickness.  It's like 50 cents a foot.  Also, people are making a big deal out of silver wire.  It's only about 5% more conductive than copper.  It does resist corrosion better than copper, but if you're not doing wire wraps with it, doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: iWrong on February 26, 2013, 06:37:21 AM
Thank you very much for your great ideas!!!
I only have one question where do you draw the power supply 75V?
Is you have a laboratory power supply unit?

I genuinely apologise for my terrible English
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Jerseybob on February 26, 2013, 09:36:00 AM
Thank you very much for your great ideas!!!
I only have one question where do you draw the power supply 75V?
Is you have a laboratory power supply unit?

I genuinely apologies for my terrible English

Hi iWrong. Your English is very good  :thumbsup:

This thread is for welding with a disposable camera. The camera circuit board puts out over 300 volts. Letting go of the charging button at 75v (V meter placed on the capacitor leads) will get you there.

You may want to look at the 1st post. It has links to key subjects.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: iWrong on February 26, 2013, 10:30:43 AM
Jerseybob
Thank you!  :wave:

Why I did not guessed about it ?
Just because this explains the 4 seconds hold button, really   :laughing:

Now, I think that it is also possible to use and the old external flash to a camera. If someone can not buy a disposable camera, for example.
In this case necessary to be careful twice because of high voltage at the V-in, of course.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on February 26, 2013, 11:05:46 AM
Aluminum solder paste and a 30w soldering iron might work for lipo tabs. The aluminum solder paste is a god send for some lipo cell tabs, some just seem more solderable than others regardless if pre tinned or not. I'm not sure if a 30w iron will be enough, but the aluminum solder paste drastically reduces then needed heat and time applied to solder lipo cell tabs.

I have never seen lipo cell  tabs welded like the cylindrical lithium cells. Only soldered and a very pita to work with grid crimp.   
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Jerseybob on February 26, 2013, 11:17:40 AM
Aluminum solder paste and a 30w soldering iron might work for lipo tabs. The aluminum solder paste is a god send for some lipo cell tabs, some just seem more solderable than others regardless if pre tinned or not. I'm not sure if a 30w iron will be enough, but the aluminum solder paste drastically reduces then needed heat and time applied to solder lipo cell tabs.

I have never seen lipo cell  tabs welded like the cylindrical lithium cells. Only soldered and a very pita to work with grid crimp.

HUH?  :Thinking:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on February 26, 2013, 11:20:17 AM
HUH?  :Thinking:

The reply was in reference to some previous discussion about solder/welding lipo tabs
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Jerseybob on February 26, 2013, 12:31:17 PM
The reply was in reference to some previous discussion about solder/welding lipo tabs

Sorry bap, I should have read back a few posts. My apologies
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: CraigHB on February 26, 2013, 05:23:27 PM
Aluminum solder paste and a 30w soldering iron might work for lipo tabs. The aluminum solder paste is a god send for some lipo cell tabs, some just seem more solderable than others regardless if pre tinned or not. I'm not sure if a 30w iron will be enough, but the aluminum solder paste drastically reduces then needed heat and time applied to solder lipo cell tabs.

I have never seen lipo cell  tabs welded like the cylindrical lithium cells. Only soldered and a very pita to work with grid crimp.

The tabs used on LiPos are typically nickel plated so they solder very nicely with electronics solder.  They do require flux and some roughing up with an abrasive, but after that they solder easily.

If you were to take a LiPo apart, you would find the positive tab is actually welded to the aluminum cathode lead using a spot weld similar to the way tabs are welded to round cells in laptop battery packs.  There should be no reason you could not weld the tabs on a LiPo if required.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bapgood on February 26, 2013, 05:33:53 PM
The tabs used on LiPos are typically nickel plated so they solder very nicely with electronics solder.  They do require flux and some roughing up with an abrasive, but after that they solder easily.

If you were to take a LiPo apart, you would find the positive tab is actually welded to the aluminum cathode lead using a spot weld similar to the way tabs are welded to round cells in laptop battery packs.  There should be no reason you could not weld the tabs on a LiPo if required.

You seem to know what you are talking about, but it doesn't match my experience soldering lipo tabs. But I have never tore one apart either, next time one goes up in flames or goes bad maybe I will look closer.

My experience is some cells are very solderable like you say, but others not your life. I now use the aluminum solder paste regardless and now every time is easy as pie.

I have all the stuff to build an 800watt dual pulse capacitive discharge welder. So when I find time to get it put together I will have to try it.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: CraigHB on February 26, 2013, 07:40:14 PM
They do vary.  I have not soldered a whole heap of different LiPo cells, but of the ones I've done, some are easy while others are not as easy.  One in particular is rather difficult, the 2200mAh hobby LiPo from Hobby King.  Though it's still totally do-able with rosin flux and 60/40 or 63/37 solder.  Just have to give it a good roughing up with ScotchBrite first.

That's awesome you already have the parts for a battery tab welder.  Would love to see the results.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Papa Hoyt on February 26, 2013, 10:33:37 PM
For those making a NR/R coil say for an Odysseus, is there no harm in juice contacting the copper? Thought I read a scare post one time about that.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: iWrong on February 27, 2013, 10:39:49 AM
For those making a NR/R coil say for an Odysseus, is there no harm in juice contacting the copper? Thought I read a scare post one time about that.
Some parts of the any Atty are made of brass. These parts from the contact with the juice is oxidized. Brass is an alloy of copper. I think copper will oxidize faster still.
I don't think that the use of copper in the Odysseus and Penelope would be a good way.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 27, 2013, 11:25:46 AM
For those making a NR/R coil say for an Odysseus, is there no harm in juice contacting the copper? Thought I read a scare post one time about that.

The strands of copper that I am using is not copper in color. It's silver. I assume it is coated or tinned. Not sure what it is. Tin? maybe nickel. The copper is not exposed.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: CraigHB on February 27, 2013, 03:25:36 PM
When you see shiny silver colored wire, it's nickel plated copper.  Aluminum is a also an excellent conductor (but not as good as copper) so you can sometimes find aluminum electrical wire, but it tends to be the real heavy gauge stuff.  Aluminum is cheaper than copper.

There's a mix of nickel plated and non-plated copper wire out there.  Nickel is similar to chromium in that it is highly resistant to corrosion so the nickel plated stuff is better, but a bit more expensive.  Nickel itself is a good conductor (but not as good as copper or aluminum) and highly resistant to corrosion so it's often used for plating electrical contacts.

304 and 303 stainless are relatively poor conductors.  They have about 1/40 the conductivity of copper.  If you use it for electrical connectivity, you want at least 20 times the cross sectional area of a copper wire or you'll get heavy losses.


Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: utak3r on February 28, 2013, 01:57:09 PM
I'm using silver-plated copper wire most of the times. You think it should get a higher voltage spark?

Now I have to find some good circuit and caps...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Ariel_MX on March 03, 2013, 02:06:54 PM
This is our prototype:

(http://i45.tinypic.com/bj5x82.jpg)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/vgmovr.jpg)

Configured charging time on screen & ray icon to indicate it is charged, joystick type button to up & down the charging time and scroll betweent charging time memories, charge button (you just push it one time and it automatically charge for the configured time) and terminal posts.

Internal 18650 battery, with integrated charger.

Final versión will show: Charging time, current memory, battery remaining charge, and status (ray icon when is charged):

(http://i47.tinypic.com/10s96c8.jpg)

On / Off switch:

(http://i48.tinypic.com/2qiqzy0.jpg)

USB Charging port with indicator leds:

(http://i47.tinypic.com/zkshtc.jpg)

Sticker:
(http://i46.tinypic.com/2h3rhop.jpg)

We have to find a nice case.

We have to find a place to buy those post terminals, like the ones garrydibley show in the Vapour Trails video.

We are waiting for new battery charger chips.

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on March 03, 2013, 02:28:01 PM
This is our prototype:

Configured charging time on screen & ray icon to indicate it is charged, joystick type button to up & down the charging time and scroll betweent charging time memories, charge button (you just push it one time and it automatically charge for the configured time) and terminal posts.

Internal 18650 battery, with integrated charger.

Final versión will show: Charging time, current memory, battery remaining charge, and status (ray icon when is charged):

We have to find a nice case.

We have to find a place to buy those post terminals, like the ones garrydibley show in the Vapour Trails video.

We are waiting for new battery charger chips.


Fantastic Ariel. I love the fact that you used an MCU.
Charge time, what are you controlling with it?
You took it several steps beyond with this.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Ariel_MX on March 03, 2013, 03:07:48 PM
Fantastic Ariel. I love the fact that you used an MCU.
Charge time, what are you controlling with it?
You took it several steps beyond with this.

Instead setting the desired voltage, we opted to do it by setting time, so the more charging time = more voltage will be charged, it has Charging Time memories, so if you found out certain gauge configuration works at X charging time, you can store that time in one of the memories, so next time you can just select that memory.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on March 03, 2013, 05:37:24 PM
Gotcha. It's like holding the charge button for X amount of time. Only way cooler way of doing it. Fantástico
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on March 03, 2013, 05:46:55 PM
This is our prototype:
VERY nice setup.  Chalk up yet another reason to get moving on MCU programming....the wait for my stuff to come in is going to be a lot more painful than waiting for standard vapemail
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Pantera on March 03, 2013, 05:54:28 PM
This is our prototype:

 :beer-toast: cool. Me likes  :beer-toast:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: geothee on March 03, 2013, 05:59:03 PM
This is our prototype:

Hey Mon. Gud one  :thumbsup: Doan ya luv it
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: werz99 on March 06, 2013, 05:22:32 PM
This looks like the highend version of a spark-o-matic;-) Which microcontroller do you use?


I want to thank for all the information in this project. I habe realised my first working sparkomatic and it works fine with 4 x 80µF and 75 volts for 0,25mm silvercoated copper wire and kanthal 0,2mm.

Regards
werz99
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on March 06, 2013, 07:09:01 PM
This looks like the highend version of a spark-o-matic;-) Which microcontroller do you use?


I want to thank for all the information in this project. I habe realised my first working sparkomatic and it works fine with 4 x 80µF and 75 volts for 0,25mm silvercoated copper wire and kanthal 0,2mm.

Regards
werz99

Congrats werz. Nice going.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Ariel_MX on March 10, 2013, 03:12:03 PM
Update:

Start screen that shows scrolling "Wire Welder" text, nickname and serial number.

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2mfc3sx.jpg)

Main screen showing the charging time, current memory (M-- is the default one), it will load the last used charging time, shows current battery voltage and charge status (thunder icon = currently charged).

By pressing the black button left or right will scroll between the 15 available memories, up or down will increase or decrease the charging time.

(http://i48.tinypic.com/2z7om09.jpg)

Charging process, it shows the "Charging" text while charging:

(http://i46.tinypic.com/33omr6f.jpg)

Charged (shows a thunder icon to indicate it is currently charged):

(http://i48.tinypic.com/1emhld.jpg)

Memory menu: in this menu you can save a charging time on the selected memory, the menu is accessed by pressing the firing button for 4 seconds, time is saved in the selected memory by pressing the firing button 1 time:

(http://i46.tinypic.com/250ifrc.jpg)

Li-Ion 18650 battery:

(http://i48.tinypic.com/f4mb1j.jpg)

It has an integrated battery charger and a battery termal sensor.

Now it shows a "Low Battery" text and current battery voltage when battery is around 3.5v to prevent battery over discharge.


Some testing:
(http://i49.tinypic.com/paom9.jpg)

So far we have tried:
Kanthal 32AWG, Nichorme: 34AWG, 32AWG and 0.17mm with no resistance 32AWG nickel wire and pure silver wire (I have to check the gauge of this one because we do not remember).



I want to specially thank to seth83 who is the master electronic mind and engineering of this project.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Poppy26 on March 11, 2013, 09:48:25 AM
Update:

Start screen that shows scrolling "Wire Welder" text, nickname and serial number.

Main screen showing the charging time, current memory (M-- is the default one), it will load the last used charging time, shows current battery voltage and charge status (thunder icon = currently charged).

By pressing the black button left or right will scroll between the 15 available memories, up or down will increase or decrease the charging time.

Charging process, it shows the "Charging" text while charging:

Charged (shows a thunder icon to indicate it is currently charged):

Memory menu: in this menu you can save a charging time on the selected memory, the menu is accessed by pressing the firing button for 4 seconds, time is saved in the selected memory by pressing the firing button 1 time:

Li-Ion 18650 battery:

It has an integrated battery charger and a battery thermal sensor.

Now it shows a "Low Battery" text and current battery voltage when battery is around 3.5v to prevent battery over discharge.


I want to specially thank to seth83 who is the master electronic mind and engineering of this project.


Congrats Ariel and seth83. Looks cool

So.. from what I get out of this is that you are controlling the charge time. It's like the same as holding your finger on the charge button for X amount of seconds.
I would imagine that monitoring the charge voltage would be more accurate than setting a charge time.
Being that perhaps charging a  cap may not be an exact consistent science each and every time,
As charging a cap to a determined voltage would be.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on March 11, 2013, 04:40:15 PM
Congrats Ariel and seth83. Looks cool

So.. from what I get out of this is that you are controlling the charge time. It's like the same as holding your finger on the charge button for X amount of seconds.
I would imagine that monitoring the charge voltage would be more accurate than setting a charge time.
Being that perhaps charging a  cap may not be an exact consistent science each and every time,
As charging a cap to a determined voltage would be.

poppy26,
I think I understand your point w/ voltage control,  Possibly...
With that said, charge cycle should be cut when a specific voltage is reached instead of a time factor. At least that's how I would do it.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: yogi on March 12, 2013, 10:43:22 AM

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2mfc3sx.jpg)


Is that a Piano tuner?  :laughing:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Ariel_MX on March 12, 2013, 03:20:03 PM
Congrats Ariel and seth83. Looks cool

So.. from what I get out of this is that you are controlling the charge time. It's like the same as holding your finger on the charge button for X amount of seconds.
I would imagine that monitoring the charge voltage would be more accurate than setting a charge time.
Being that perhaps charging a  cap may not be an exact consistent science each and every time,
As charging a cap to a determined voltage would be.

Thanks Poppy26,

The final voltage after X time is pretty consistent / steady, for example, if you configure it to charge for 3 seconds, the resultant voltage after charging for that time will be 28v, if you discharge it and, repeat the test, the final voltage will be 28v, there could be little variances, but not considerable ones.

Anyway, we have added some features:

It now displays (when it is charged), instead the thunder icon, the final charged voltage (you can see how it increases while charging).

We have now the option to select the desired charging voltage instead by doing it by time.

What we are trying to do is to have both options available via mode menu, so you can switch between charging by time or by setting the final desired voltage, we do not know if there will be enough space in the PIC to have both options, but we think it will be possible :)

I will talk to Del Boy (Vapor Wall) to open a interest list for this device, if there is enough interest (20 people) we will build them.

Price will be around $110.00 USD (shipping an PP fees included), we are not making any profit of it, maybe our profit will be to use the extra components to build 2 more, one for me and another for a reviewer (seth83 will own the prototype SN:000).



Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Ariel_MX on March 12, 2013, 03:30:26 PM
Is that a Piano tuner?  :laughing:

It is an old and very simple CASIO Keyboard, a birthday gif my dad gave me like 25 years ago  :laughing2:

I always wanted to learn to play piano :)

But instead piano lessons, my dad inscribed me in "marimba" lessons, I didn't want to learn to play marimba, so I never learnt.

This is a marimba:

(http://www.oaxaca.gob.mx/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/rincon_de_la_marimba_2.png)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Ariel_MX on March 13, 2013, 04:23:02 PM
Some updates at Vapor Wall and list of interest.

http://www.vaporwall.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6460&p=91901#p91901
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vaporhead on March 30, 2013, 05:26:42 PM
I've followed this thread from the beginning and I finally got around to building one. Thanks guys.
After much practice I have the welds really solid. They do not break apart when winding them.
I am using 32 gauge Kanthal A1 and a strand of bare wire like breaktru is doing.
I concluded that welding the tips work better than the overlap. What I found is that the first two attempts melt the tips (ends) of the wires forming a bead. The 3rd go at it makes an excellent and strong weld probably due to a larger surface area.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on April 02, 2013, 01:08:36 PM
I've followed this thread from the beginning and I finally got around to building one. Thanks guys.
After much practice I have the welds really solid. They do not break apart when winding them.
I am using 32 gauge Kanthal A1 and a strand of bare wire like breaktru is doing.
I concluded that welding the tips work better than the overlap. What I found is that the first two attempts melt the tips (ends) of the wires forming a bead. The 3rd go at it makes an excellent and strong weld probably due to a larger surface area.

I also found that tacking the tip to tip makes a stronger weld that does NOT break no matter how hard you tug on it or how many times your bend it.
Lately I found the same thing happening. First couple of attempts causes the ends to bead which makes a wider surface to weld to. This is better than overlapping. Overlapping always led to the wire breaking before the weld.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: angah83 on April 03, 2013, 03:57:47 AM
Found this Photo-Flash Capacitor for a buck at: AllElectronics (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PPC-273/PHOTO-FLASH-CAPACITOR-270UF-330WV/1.html)

Also found the Flash board circuits for a buck at: FLASH ASSEMBLY (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/FSH-12/FLASH-ASSEMBLY/1.html)

hi Breaktru,

do you know how much caps value in uF those Flash Assembly have?

i'm about to buy both the flash assembly and extra caps as you mentioned above.

p/s: sorry for my bad english. i'm from malaysia.

 :thankyou:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on April 03, 2013, 08:44:45 AM
hi Breaktru,

do you know how much caps value in uF those Flash Assembly have?

i'm about to buy both the flash assembly and extra caps as you mentioned above.

p/s: sorry for my bad english. i'm from malaysia.

 :thankyou:

I've opened a lot of cameras and the cap values vary. This is what I found in uF value: 80, 100, 120.
The link to the AllElectronics (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PPC-273/PHOTO-FLASH-CAPACITOR-270UF-330WV/1.html) cap is a 270uF. If you parallel it to an 80uF that would work out to about what I recommend.
I don't know the value of the cap that is on the AllElectronics Flash Assembly board but what ever it is it should work fine w/ the extra 270uF.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: angah83 on April 04, 2013, 04:49:37 AM
I've opened a lot of cameras and the cap values vary. This is what I found in uF value: 80, 100, 120.
The link to the AllElectronics (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PPC-273/PHOTO-FLASH-CAPACITOR-270UF-330WV/1.html) cap is a 270uF. If you parallel it to an 80uF that would work out to about what I recommend.
I don't know the value of the cap that is on the AllElectronics Flash Assembly board but what ever it is it should work fine w/ the extra 270uF.

Thank you for your prompt reply Breaktru. I'll have to wait about 2-4 weeks  :wallbash: before getting my hands dirty with this project.  :rockin smiley:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: angah83 on April 04, 2013, 10:31:36 PM
Breaktru..

I believe that you are using Allen Bradley 15K 2W resistor. Does the resistor W values matters in this build? Can I use 1/4w, 1/2w 1w, 3w etc.?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on April 05, 2013, 04:45:43 PM
Breaktru..

I believe that you are using Allen Bradley 15K 2W resistor. Does the resistor W values matters in this build? Can I use 1/4w, 1/2w 1w, 3w etc.?

Current on discharge is so minute it is barely readable. Cranked up to 325v I measured 0.02uA so anything small in wattage will do.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: angah83 on April 12, 2013, 11:07:28 AM
just thinking of replacing one way on/off switch with SPDT 3 pins switch and add 1K resistor on the off pin side so that it will drain the caps when the switch is in off mode/state. is it plausible/safe?

Edited: Change from SPST to SPDT.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on April 12, 2013, 11:20:58 AM
just thinking of replacing one way on/off switch with SPST 3 pins switch and add 1K resistor on the off pin side so that it will drain the caps when the switch is in off mode/state. is it plausible/safe?

The reason for the bleeder resistor is to bump down the voltage if you over shoot your targeted voltage. A push-button would be a better choice if you had to tap it down only a bit.
A 15K would be better for finer adjustment. A 1K would bleed it down faster.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: angah83 on April 12, 2013, 12:27:56 PM
The reason for the bleeder resistor is to bump down the voltage if you over shoot your targeted voltage. A push-button would be a better choice if you had to tap it down only a bit.
A 15K would be better for finer adjustment. A 1K would bleed it down faster.

I understand the concept. The 15K resistor will be there untouched. I'm just thinking of a way to automatically drain the caps whenever the circuit is not complete (off). so I can be sure that when I turn off Spark-O-Matic, the caps will no longer hold charges and I can touch the leads without zapping myself.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on April 12, 2013, 12:43:45 PM
I understand the concept. The 15K resistor will be there untouched. I'm just thinking of a way to automatically drain the caps whenever the circuit is not complete (off). so I can be sure that when I turn off Spark-O-Matic, the caps will no longer hold charges and I can touch the leads without zapping myself.

Sounds like a good idea. Very cleaver
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: angah83 on April 12, 2013, 01:43:24 PM
Sounds like a good idea. Very cleaver

thank you..    ;bow;

i can say that we now have an added security features to those who forget to discharge/weld their nr to r wire after pressing those charging button.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: tommygun on April 12, 2013, 02:15:46 PM
thank you..    ;bow;

i can say that we now have an added security features to those who forget to discharge/weld their nr to r wire after pressing those charging button.  :thumbsup:

Excellent @angah83. Nice going. I'm surprised not one thought of that before  :applaude:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: elzakivis on April 12, 2013, 02:24:28 PM
I'm just thinking of a way to automatically drain the caps whenever the circuit is not complete (off). so I can be sure that when I turn off Spark-O-Matic, the caps will no longer hold charges and I can touch the leads without zapping myself.

Good one anga  :rockin smiley:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: helex on April 18, 2013, 04:10:03 PM
introduce a “Spotty v1”, device for wire spot welding.

This is a working prototype and the final version will be finished within a few days.
We took a bit different approach when designing this device since we noticed some common difficulties in spot welding process.

First of all, this is Low Voltage welder, which deals with the problem of accidental electric shock. Voltage is regulated up to 37 Volts and wires can be freely touched by fingers without any fear.

Another common problem is accidental battery reversal. Since we use 9V battery, this problem is even easier to occur, so we integrated reverse polarity protection. If battery is put in reverse while device switch is ON, device will NOT produce white smoke, it will remain operational. I think everyone can agree that this is good feature, especial for novice users.

Of course, there is also output stage circuit protection, which is mandatory on this kind of devices (at least the ones of good quality). Short circuit on output terminals during the charge phase will not damage electronics part, LCD screen will just display zero value.

When working with such tiny things as very thin wires, you need a very good lighting (after certain age usually accompanied with glasses ) to achieve good quality welds. To come around this issue, we installed a guiding support in front of the Positive terminal post. You need only to protrude resistance wire 5 mm of the terminal, let it rest on support, and clamp it with terminal cap.
This will ensure the same welding conditions for every spot you make. Non resistance wire (NR) on the black terminal can be long as you see fit for easy handling (10 cm or even more).

After switching the device ON, LCD shows preset voltage up to the moment you press the charge button. Pressing the charge button will cause display to switch to another mode: it will show rising of charging voltage. The required welding voltage will depend on the thickness of the wire.
When desired voltage is achieved, release the charging button and proceed with welding.

Charging time is around 2 – 3 seconds.
We tested a various wires thickness and types, NiCr and kanthal against NR nickel and pure silver wire.

It is also possible to use Alligator Clip (Clips) to hold the wires (for people with extremely steady hands), but in that case you have to take great care when aligning the wires and to achieve a good electrical contact.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86c_Z-pgJVw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86c_Z-pgJVw)

a few pictures:

(http://i47.tinypic.com/2i79312.jpg) (http://i48.tinypic.com/2djo3yo.jpg)
(http://i50.tinypic.com/333vgd1.jpg) (http://i48.tinypic.com/28cosxt.jpg)
(http://i46.tinypic.com/2w5n90n.jpg)
(http://i50.tinypic.com/531nok.jpg)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2133oqq.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Squance on April 29, 2013, 01:09:01 PM
Thank you breaktru for your Spark-o-matic thread. I finally got around to building one. I picked up a few spent camera's at my local pharmacy. I took out the caps on two and added them to a Kodak board making it 340uF like you suggested.
I got to tell you I'm ecstatic about my build. Had lots of fun zapping coil wires  :cheer:
After some practice I got this coil wire down pretty good  :thumbsup:
 :thankyou:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: banshee on May 07, 2013, 02:18:52 PM
+1 yes thank you breaktru for the info here. It was easy to follow and I save some money making my own  :thumbsup: and not having to buy one from copy cats selling them on other forums  :no:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: theDom on May 07, 2013, 04:22:29 PM
 :beer-toast: Nothing like the satisfaction of making something yourself. Well done guys
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on May 07, 2013, 04:46:59 PM
I really need to get off my ass on this one again.

Once I let the voltage stabilize I was getting what I thought were nice strong welds.  Still had the issue of them breaking when they were torqued while winding the actual coil though.....got frustrated and back-burnered it for a while.  It was really annoying the hell out of me getting these nice clean welds that I could sit there and yank on all day and they'd hold, but winding a coil....PFFFFT!  They'd usually wait until I was just about finished and was attaching the nickel leads to my atty and then snap on me.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on May 07, 2013, 05:49:54 PM
I really need to get off my ass on this one again.

Once I let the voltage stabilize I was getting what I thought were nice strong welds.  Still had the issue of them breaking when they were torqued while winding the actual coil though.....got frustrated and back-burnered it for a while.  It was really annoying the hell out of me getting these nice clean welds that I could sit there and yank on all day and they'd hold, but winding a coil....PFFFFT!  They'd usually wait until I was just about finished and was attaching the nickel leads to my atty and then snap on me.  :facepalm:

I had that happen a lot in the beginning. I lowered the voltage by only a few volts and had better luck.
I think the wire strength (softened) was weakened by the higher voltage because the wire would break before/after the weld.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: banshee on May 07, 2013, 05:54:49 PM
I agree with the voltage setting. Use the lowest voltage that will make a successful weld. Takes some playing with but it's worth the time.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: theDom on May 07, 2013, 05:56:38 PM
I agree with the voltage setting. Use the lowest voltage that will make a successful weld. Takes some playing with but it's worth the time.

I second that  :thumbsup: been there, done that
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: stimps403 on May 28, 2013, 01:29:46 PM
New to the forums. Just wanted to compliment everyone on the great work. Now to go see if I can make one of these bad boys without electrocuting myself.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on May 28, 2013, 01:34:51 PM
New to the forums. Just wanted to compliment everyone on the great work. Now to go see if I can make one of these bad boys without electrocuting myself.

Welcome to the forum stimps and good luck with your build
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Mimms on May 28, 2013, 04:53:33 PM
New to the forums. Just wanted to compliment everyone on the great work. Now to go see if I can make one of these bad boys without electrocuting myself.

Welcome @stimps403.
Just remember to remove the battery and short the cap together before handling the board. The capacitor can hold a charge for quite a long time. I've been zapped and I can tell you first hand, it's a nasty jolt  freaked_out:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: d_walk on May 28, 2013, 05:05:22 PM
I picked up a couple of used cameras and found that the caps still held a charge even though I never turned on the camera.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: stimps403 on May 29, 2013, 11:09:12 AM
Thanks for the welcomes and the warnings.

Do most photo processing places give away used disposable cameras?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Skorpios1027 on May 29, 2013, 11:26:38 AM
Thanks for the welcomes and the warnings.

Do most photo processing places give away used disposable cameras?

Depends on where you go (and who you talk to) I had a hard time finding a place to give me one. Most in my area recycle them.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on May 29, 2013, 11:27:41 AM
Thanks for the welcomes and the warnings.

Do most photo processing places give away used disposable cameras?

Depends on the person behind the counter. The first time at a CVS pharmacy the person said no. I returned to the same CVS and was able to snag several from a different person. Also scored a bunch from Costco.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: stimps403 on May 29, 2013, 11:37:08 AM
Thanks. I'll have to go ask nicely. :)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on May 29, 2013, 11:46:36 AM
If anyone is still having trouble getting the cameras/caps hit me up in a PM and I'll be happy to send you some if you just cover the shipping.  There is no way that I will use all of the ones that I have now....and I can still probably hit up Walmart for more (their employees generally don't give a damn.....especially if you hit the ones in the shittier neighborhoods  :thumbsup: )

-MT
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: stimps403 on May 29, 2013, 11:50:34 AM
If anyone is still having trouble getting the cameras/caps hit me up in a PM and I'll be happy to send you some if you just cover the shipping.  There is no way that I will use all of the ones that I have now....and I can still probably hit up Walmart for more (their employees generally don't give a damn.....especially if you hit the ones in the shittier neighborhoods  :thumbsup: )

-MT

That's a generous offer. If I don't have any luck, I'll definitely PM you. Thanks.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: nahoku on June 03, 2013, 04:07:16 AM
Hello,
I'm new to this forum too and also wanted to thank everyone for their contribution to this thread... most of all to Breaktru for sharing and starting it up!   :rockin smiley:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on June 03, 2013, 07:58:09 AM
Hello,
I'm new to this forum too and also wanted to thank everyone for their contribution to this thread... most of all to Breaktru for sharing and starting it up!   :rockin smiley:

Welcome to the forum nahoku. I am happy to share with the modding community.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: nahoku on June 03, 2013, 09:06:01 AM
Welcome to the forum nahoku. I am happy to share with the modding community.
Thanks Breaktru!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on June 18, 2013, 05:06:40 PM
If you can not get used flash cameras, Electronic Goldmine has them on sale. 10 for $4.00
SALE! Super Strobe Board (Package of 10) (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610B)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Statistic on June 26, 2013, 02:08:37 AM
Just want to say thanks as well for this thread. I just got my zapper zapping tonight :)

A girl at Walgreens gave me 3 Kodak's. Two had 80µF caps in them and the boards are almost identical to the diagram. The other one, a Power Flash model, has a 160µF cap and the board is really cool looking.. it's red ;)

Thanks Breaktru, there may be hope yet for my Terminator.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: fsors on June 26, 2013, 02:12:53 AM
If you can not get used flash cameras, Electronic Goldmine has them on sale. 10 for $4.00
SALE! Super Strobe Board (Package of 10) (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610B)

cheap weldi ng  :laughing2: :thumbsup: :laughing2:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on June 26, 2013, 06:20:30 AM
Just want to say thanks as well for this thread. I just got my zapper zapping tonight :)

A girl at Walgreens gave me 3 Kodak's. Two had 80µF caps in them and the boards are almost identical to the diagram. The other one, a Power Flash model, has a 160µF cap and the board is really cool looking.. it's red ;)

Thanks Breaktru, there may be hope yet for my Terminator.

Cool. Free is good  :yes"
and..... happy Sparking
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Lobot on July 11, 2013, 07:15:37 PM
Greetings Breaktru forum. first time poster. long time lurker. i just got 3 fuji cameras from cvs (free got to love knowing managers) 1 was the AA model the other 2 were AAA models. the caps have no markings on them. any idea on what size they are? or should i just buy some fresh caps?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on July 11, 2013, 08:57:11 PM
Greetings Breaktru forum. first time poster. long time lurker. i just got 3 fuji cameras from cvs (free got to love knowing managers) 1 was the AA model the other 2 were AAA models. the caps have no markings on them. any idea on what size they are? or should i just buy some fresh caps?

Thanks Lobot for participating. The narrator in the FUJI CAMERA FLASH MOD video in this thread, says the cap is a 120uF. Not sure if he's talking about the AA or AAA model.
Looking at the physical size of the cap and comparing the size to the Kodak caps which are marked, I'm guessing they may actually be 80uF for the AAA and maybe 100uF for the AA.
If you use the single cap on the AAA camera try welding at about 120v. The more capacitance you add the lower the voltage setting. But I did experiment and found 340uF worked the best for me at 74v - 76v. I tried lower and higher capacitance.

You can pick up some cheap camera caps HERE (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PPC-273/PHOTO-FLASH-CAPACITOR-270UF-330WV/1.html) or get some more free cameras and parallel some caps taken from the them.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: PoppaVic60 on July 13, 2013, 03:02:18 AM
Sadly, now listing $14.90

If you can not get used flash cameras, Electronic Goldmine has them on sale. 10 for $4.00
SALE! Super Strobe Board (Package of 10) (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610B)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on July 13, 2013, 06:21:46 AM
Sadly, now listing $14.90

They have another link for $1.00 a piece or buy 10 @ $0.85 a piece HERE (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/FSH-12/FLASH-ASSEMBLY/1.html) also listed on the #1 original post.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: PoppaVic60 on July 13, 2013, 10:25:55 AM
Yep, thanks..

Planning on a couple of those and 2x as many of the caps.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Bocephus on July 17, 2013, 12:55:39 AM
I haven't tried this meter but it is a 100M ohm High input impedance: DIGITAL PANEL METER, LCD,2.7 INCH x 1.7 INCH (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2131135&catalogId=10001&CID=MERCH)
You will also need this: Used to finely tune your panel meter. (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=2076121)

Hey Breaktru or anyone for that matter have you tried that meter you linked by chance yet? Would it be a good choice to stick in a sparko? I have a cheapo meter I use for most things but would like to add one to the welder and the price is fine for me if it will work.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on July 17, 2013, 08:25:38 AM
Hey Breaktru or anyone for that matter have you tried that meter you linked by chance yet? Would it be a good choice to stick in a sparko? I have a cheapo meter I use for most things but would like to add one to the welder and the price is fine for me if it will work.

I haven't tried it but it should work just fine.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Bocephus on July 17, 2013, 07:00:38 PM
Good enough for me. Think Ill give it a shot.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: edsback41 on July 23, 2013, 09:37:46 PM
Who would like to sell me a completed Spark-o-matic? Please?
How much?
Do you have Paypal?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: clim1983 on July 23, 2013, 10:21:15 PM
How do I setup the wiring for the charge button on the Kodak? I just see that you solder jumper the area
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on July 24, 2013, 08:32:10 AM
How do I setup the wiring for the charge button on the Kodak? I just see that you solder jumper the area


Did you view the schematic HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg5990.html#msg5990)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: clim1983 on July 24, 2013, 01:07:29 PM
Did you view the schematic HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg5990.html#msg5990)

I finally got a prototype to work but it one worked twice and after that it stopped working... I'm going to rebuild another one and a cleaner one so hopefully this runs smoothly! Thanks Breaktru!!!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on July 24, 2013, 01:30:31 PM
I finally got a prototype to work but it one worked twice and after that it stopped working... I'm going to rebuild another one and a cleaner one so hopefully this runs smoothly! Thanks Breaktru!!!

Have you checked the battery? I find they don't last long.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: clim1983 on July 24, 2013, 01:50:01 PM
Have you checked the battery? I find they don't last long.

I tried so many batteries and I do hear the charge but when I touch the wires nothing happens. Do you think I can use a AW IMR 14500 battery safely?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on July 24, 2013, 02:06:08 PM
I tried so many batteries and I do hear the charge but when I touch the wires nothing happens. Do you think I can use a AW IMR 14500 battery safely?
I think the 14500 (3.7v) will damage the flash board. It's designed to work with 1.5v.
Did you put a meter on the zap leads or across the cap? Maybe it's not charging long enough.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 08, 2013, 12:57:34 PM
Hi All,

Great Thread!.

I have a few questions. Maybe someone could answer me. I notice the camera board rated 1.5v, so 1 double AA battery should power it up. But the LCD voltmeter screen rated 4.5-12v to power it.

Could I run just a 9v battery to power both the LCD Screen and the Camera board? If yes, please let me know if I need to run any Resistor and maybe how too. Thanks in advance.

HELP! please! raged:

Thanks
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 08, 2013, 01:32:56 PM
Hi All,

Great Thread!.

I have a few questions. Maybe someone could answer me. I notice the camera board rated 1.5v, so 1 double AA battery should power it up. But the LCD voltmeter screen rated 4.5-12v to power it.

Could I run just a 9v battery to power both the LCD Screen and the Camera board? If yes, please let me know if I need to run any Resistor and maybe how too. Thanks in advance.

HELP! please! raged:

Thanks


I used a AA battery for the board and a 9v for the meter.
If you would like to run off of the one 9v battery for both, you will need to build a voltage divider as shown in the image attached below.

Vin = 9v
R1 = 20K
R2 = 4.7K
Vout = 1.713v

Resistor can be from 1% to 5% tolerance and 1/8 to 1/4 watt.

DO NOT BUILD THIS CIRCUIT
A voltage divider will not work for the flash board circuit due to its load. Under load the voltage drops to a half of volt. I tried several configurations and even at 8v for Vout, it still drops to a half of volt.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 08, 2013, 05:38:30 PM
Thank you Breaktru.

I am just wondering where did you buy your LCD meter and abs enclosure?

What size are the enclosure?

Thanks
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 08, 2013, 06:31:47 PM
Thank you Breaktru.

I am just wondering where did you buy your LCD meter and abs enclosure?

What size are the enclosure?

Thanks

I had mentioned in this topic about avoiding using a cheap meter because of their LOW input impedance. Low impedance will slowly discharge the capacitor causing a poor weld. See Reply #102 (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6121.html#msg6121) about using a meter with 10Meg or higher input impedance.

See the bottom link in this post for a Panel Meter with 100 Meg: Panel Meter (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6261.html#msg6261) Note: NOT the one from Wonmeter.

Enclosures:
   Better: Serpac 032 (http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70196481)
   Cheaper: ABS PROJECT BOX, 4" X 3" X 1.6" (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/MB-173/ABS-PROJECT-BOX-4-X-3-X-1.6/1.html)

Test Jacks:
   Can be used by them selves or with test plug. Jack can accept a stripped wire thru the side or plug jack into the top.
   Deltron Test Plugs & Test Jacks Black (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Deltron/552-0100-BLK/?qs=lj71xN7SzAIgEB6K2d%252bqaw==) OR Black (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/BP-B/BANANA-JACK-BINDING-POST-BLACK/1.html) and Red (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Deltron/552-0500-RED/?qs=lj71xN7SzALLN02XZl3ZPg==) OR Red (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/BP-R/BANANA-JACK-BINDING-POST-RED/1.html)
   Banana Plug (optional) Red and Black (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PD83EM/ref=pe_175190_21431760_3p_M3T1_ST1_dp_1)
   OR Black (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/BP-26B/BLACK-BANANA-PLUG-PLASTIC-SHELL/1.html) - Red (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/BP-26R/RED-BANANA-PLUG-PLASTIC-SHELL/1.html)

Stranded Wire:
  Use 20 gauge Wire (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/category/825470/Wire/Cable/Stranded-Hook-Up-Wire-25-Roll/1.html)

Push Button Switches:
  Black PB (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/MPB-1B/SPST-MOMENTARY-N.O.-BLACK-PUSHBUTTON/1.html)
  Red PB (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/MPB-1/SPST-MOMENTARY-N.O.-RED-PUSHBUTTON/1.html)
  Green PB (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/MPB-1G/SPST-N.O.-MOMENTARY-PUSHBUTTON-GREEN/1.html)

On/Off Switches:
  Rocker Type (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/category/720/Switches-Rocker/1.html) (Do NOT use a Lighted Sw)
  Slide Type (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/category/724/Switches-Slide/1.html)
  Toggle Type (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/category/730/Switches-Toggle/1.html)

Discharge Resistor:
  Select a 15K resistor here (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/category/530100/Resistors/1/2-Watt-Resistors/1.html)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 12, 2013, 01:53:00 PM
Thanks Breaktru for the help.

I have just build one with a camera. added additional cap.
My mod spec:
 160uf + 270uf = 430uf
 LCD Rated 0-99v
ran 2 power source AA/9v for LCD.
Created a divider for the LCD example 75v will read 7.5v.
R1 9.1m and R2 1m = 10m or so.

The problem i have is when i charge up to 1v of the LCD display and I attached a voltmeter to compare. The voltmeter reading is much higher example LCD shows 1.1v and voltmeter reads out 66.x volts. It is really off by almost 50v  scared:

Could you please tell me what you think i am doing wrong?
How could i get a more accurate reading displaying on my LCD?

Thanks
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 12, 2013, 02:39:29 PM
Thanks Breaktru for the help.

I have just build one with a camera. added additional cap.
My mod spec:
 160uf + 270uf = 430uf
 LCD Rated 0-99v
ran 2 power source AA/9v for LCD.
Created a divider for the LCD example 75v will read 7.5v.
R1 9.1m and R2 1m = 10m or so.

The problem i have is when i charge up to 1v of the LCD display and I attached a voltmeter to compare. The voltmeter reading is much higher example LCD shows 1.1v and voltmeter reads out 66.x volts. It is really off by almost 50v  scared:

Could you please tell me what you think i am doing wrong?
How could i get a more accurate reading displaying on my LCD?

Thanks

The voltage divider I showed was to get 1.7v to power the flashboard from a 9v battery. How are you using it? Do you have a drawing on what you did?
What digital meter are you using?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 12, 2013, 03:01:10 PM
I used a AA battery for the board and a 9v for the meter.
If you would like to run off of the one 9v battery for both, you will need to build a voltage divider as shown in the image attached below.

Vin = 9v
R1 = 20K
R2 = 4.7K
Vout = 1.713v

Resistor can be from 1% to 5% tolerance and 1/8 to 1/4 watt.
The voltage divider I showed was to get 1.7v to power the flashboard from a 9v battery. How are you using it? Do you have a drawing on what you did?
What digital meter are you using?

No, I am currently at work and I don't have a drawing sorry. It looks like the drawing you have provide me for the 9v. only difference is I ran the LCD display to the +/- other end direct to Cap.  R1 9m and r2 1m total 10m resistor

I am currently using a cheap $5 voltmeter.

Thanks
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 12, 2013, 04:05:17 PM
The 9v battery alone will power the Display. That is if the meter requires a separate power source. The voltage divider is used if you were using only the 9v battery and not the 1.5 AA battery.
You said you were using both a 1.5v AA and a 9v battery, so get rid of the voltage divider.
If you are trying to do something like I did for LOW impedance meters, a series resistor was used to bring up the impedance resistance as mentioned ---> HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6121.html#msg6121)

OR...... you can use this $7.95 meter: 100M ohm High input impedance: DIGITAL PANEL METER, LCD,2.7 INCH x 1.7 INCH (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2131135&catalogId=10001&CID=MERCH)
You will also need this: Used to finely tune your panel meter. (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=2076121)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 12, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
the Display LCD has 3 wires red, black and a white. The only reason I ran it the way i did is because the LCD is rated 0-99v plus I wanted to read 7.5v = 75v. 

here is the spec of my LCD hope that helps..
Measurement accuracy: ±0.1%
Refresh rate: about 200mS/times
Display: Three 0.56 "digital tube
Measuring range: DC 0V-99.9V
Input range: DC 4V-30V
Display Color: Blue
Operating current: Less than 8mA
Operating temperature: -10°c -65°c
Input impedance: About 100K
Reverse polarity protection: Yes
Weight?20g
Dimensions: 48 x 29 x 22 mm (1 7/8 x 1 5/32 x 7/8 in )

I guess I would want to do 10Meg or higher input impedance as well. Is there anyway to keep my current LCD and make it display the correct volts?

Thanks so much for the help.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 12, 2013, 05:04:22 PM
the Display LCD has 3 wires red, black and a white. The only reason I ran it the way i did is because the LCD is rated 0-99v plus I wanted to read 7.5v = 75v. 

here is the spec of my LCD hope that helps..
Measurement accuracy: ±0.1%
Refresh rate: about 200mS/times
Display: Three 0.56 "digital tube
Measuring range: DC 0V-99.9V
Input range: DC 4V-30V
Display Color: Blue
Operating current: Less than 8mA
Operating temperature: -10°c -65°c
Input impedance: About 100K
Reverse polarity protection: Yes
Weight?20g
Dimensions: 48 x 29 x 22 mm (1 7/8 x 1 5/32 x 7/8 in )

I guess I would want to do 10Meg or higher input impedance as well. Is there anyway to keep my current LCD and make it display the correct volts?

Thanks so much for the help.

If your DM is 100k input impedance then you are going to need approximately 9.9M ohm to bring it up to 10M. Some tweaking is necessary to correspond the 75v to exactly 7.5v. I had to play a lot with resistors to get it close.
My advise is to series a fixed 5 meg ohm resistor to a 5 meg ohm trimmer pot so you can easily tweak it.
5M Trimmer (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Piher/PT10LV10-505A3030/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvygUB3GLcD7jZSyzxDqivkhJnlTe6JNqY%3d) and a 5M fixed resistor (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/CMF555M0000FKBF/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtlubZbdhIBINsEnCmSqV8%252bonhs6ZIBlTY%3d)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 12, 2013, 05:23:04 PM
Sorry for all the noob questions.

Do you have a drawing on how to run the resistor to 9.9m in  series (input impedance)?   Please!

By removing the divider I have made, would I get a more correct reading? I assume I just can't go over 99v since the DM rated at 0-99v. Correct?

input impedance  increase (10m) I would have a more stable volts?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 12, 2013, 06:21:10 PM
Sorry for all the noob questions.

Do you have a drawing on how to run the resistor to 9.9m in  series (input impedance)?   Please!

By removing the divider I have made, would I get a more correct reading? I assume I just can't go over 99v since the DM rated at 0-99v. Correct?

input impedance  increase (10m) I would have a more stable volts?

With the resistors in series with the DM, you will never have to worry about exceeding the DM's max voltage. Remember 75v will read as 7.5v on the DM so 99v on the DM would actually be 990v. Way more than the Flash board max voltage.

See this drawing I have attached below
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 12, 2013, 06:38:53 PM
With the resistors in series with the DM, you will never have to worry about exceeding the DM's max voltage. Remember 75v will read as 7.5v on the DM so 99v on the DM would actually be 990v. Way more than the Flash board max voltage.

See this drawing I have attached below

Do I have to use the 2 5meg fixed/trimmer?

I have currently resistor different ranges can total it to 10meg more or less, can I used resistor and would that be run the same as the drawing?

One more thing from your drawing. Where you have the 15k for discharge. I notice there is a break right there. Could you please give me a little more instructions to run that correctly.

Thanks
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Mr. Tattoo on August 12, 2013, 07:55:15 PM
Hello all I just wanted to thank Breaktru and everyone else that has contributed you all rock  :rockin smiley:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Mr. Tattoo on August 12, 2013, 07:56:40 PM
Quick question how long will a AA battery last in the Spark-O-Matic
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 12, 2013, 07:57:51 PM
Do I have to use the 2 5meg fixed/trimmer?
Look closer.. The text next to the components states what it is. The top one says: "5 Meg Trimmer/Pot" the one below it says: "5 Meg Fixed Resistor". So the answer is NO. One is a pot in series w/ a resistor.

I have currently resistor different ranges can total it to 10meg more or less, can I used resistor and would that be run the same as the drawing?
Yes you can use resistors instead but let me warn you that it will take a lot of trial and error to get the EXACT results. Been there.

One more thing from your drawing. Where you have the 15k for discharge. I notice there is a break right there. Could you please give me a little more instructions to run that correctly.
Again, look closer. The text tells you that it is a "Discharge P.B." P.B. is a PUSH BUTTON. As the drawing shows, it is a Normally Open switch.
If you click on the image it will open for a larger view.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 12, 2013, 08:00:04 PM
Perfect!

Thanks again for all the great info.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 12, 2013, 08:01:29 PM
Quick question how long will a AA battery last in the Spark-O-Matic

I haven't done a longevity test but they do not seem to last very long. Then again, I'm using the batteries from the cameras I got for free (couple of dozen). Haven't tried a brand new one yet.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Mr. Tattoo on August 12, 2013, 08:08:02 PM
Thanks Breaktru I was curious about the batteries that came in them . I am just about done with my Spark-O-Matic this is going to be so much better then twisting wires. 
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Mr. Tattoo on August 12, 2013, 08:10:37 PM
Thanks to my local Walgreen's I will use up the free batteries first  :)   
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Mr. Tattoo on August 12, 2013, 08:46:16 PM
No more sticking my fingers   raged:  Just made 2 coils and worked perfectly! I used 3 caps 2 that came in the Fuji AA camera and one that came in the Fuji AAA camera I decided not to use the LED's I had. I tried charging for 4sec but was to hot then tried 2 sec and thats my magic # Thank you all so much this is awesome..
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 12, 2013, 08:50:02 PM
No more sticking my fingers   raged:  Just made 2 coils and worked perfectly! I used 3 caps 2 that came in the Fuji AA camera and one that came in the Fuji AAA camera I decided not to use the LED's I had. I tried charging for 4sec but was to hot then tried 2 sec and thats my magic # Thank you all so much this is awesome..

Nice work  :rockin smiley:
Congrats on your successful welds. Most first time users don't have that luck and need practice with the technique.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Mr. Tattoo on August 12, 2013, 08:55:25 PM
TY...I am a Tattoo artist and have a pretty steady hand so I am sure that helps. I do plan on making a stationary ground post as I think it will make it even easier as you have stated in a previous reply...Much thanks again..
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 13, 2013, 01:01:22 AM
Look closer.. The text next to the components states what it is. The top one says: "5 Meg Trimmer/Pot" the one below it says: "5 Meg Fixed Resistor". So the answer is NO. One is a pot in series w/ a resistor.
Yes you can use resistors instead but let me warn you that it will take a lot of trial and error to get the EXACT results. Been there.
Again, look closer. The text tells you that it is a "Discharge P.B." P.B. is a PUSH BUTTON. As the drawing shows, it is a Normally Open switch.
If you click on the image it will open for a larger view.

Ok, Great News! :thumbsup:

I have found the right series of resistor to get the DM to read correctly with a Voltmeter tester.
I cant seem to get 10m the voltmeter tester reads 40-50v higher than the LCD DM.

I have ran in series 1m, 1m, 470k= 2.47m that seems to do the trick. both Voltmeter tester and LCD DM match voltage as it goes up and goes down. drop rates is pretty slow pretty stable.

Thanks again for all your help.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 13, 2013, 08:56:58 AM
Ok, Great News! :thumbsup:

I have found the right series of resistor to get the DM to read correctly with a Voltmeter tester.
I cant seem to get 10m the voltmeter tester reads 40-50v higher than the LCD DM.

I have ran in series 1m, 1m, 470k= 2.47m that seems to do the trick. both Voltmeter tester and LCD DM match voltage as it goes up and goes down. drop rates is pretty slow pretty stable.

Thanks again for all your help.

Good to hear that you got it to work. Sounds as though the DM input impedance was NOT 100K but much higher if you only needed 2.47m. I had posted previously the link to measure the exact input impedance of a DM but that does not matter now that you got it working.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 13, 2013, 06:34:35 PM
I used a AA battery for the board and a 9v for the meter.
If you would like to run off of the one 9v battery for both, you will need to build a voltage divider as shown in the image attached below.

Vin = 9v
R1 = 20K
R2 = 4.7K
Vout = 1.713v

Resistor can be from 1% to 5% tolerance and 1/8 to 1/4 watt.


Hi Breaktru,

So i try to set a divider to power both with just a 9v battery.

I have run it with your instruction. got Vin to read 9.1v and Vout 1.7 on the divider.

I connected Vout to 1 switch (board) and Vin to 9v then out to  2nd switch (LCD DM)

It won't power the Board, only power up LCD. What do you think seems to be the problems.

Thanks
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 13, 2013, 07:09:56 PM

Hi Breaktru,

So i try to set a divider to power both with just a 9v battery.

I have run it with your instruction. got Vin to read 9.1v and Vout 1.7 on the divider.

I connected Vout to 1 switch (board) and Vin to 9v then out to  2nd switch (LCD DM)

It won't power the Board, only power up LCD. What do you think seems to be the problems.

Thanks

Did you put a test meter to Vout and try connecting the neg of the board that went to the AA battery to the Vout neg.

update: the voltage divider to power to use a single 9v battery does not work. Use two batteries. A 9v and a 1.5v AA
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 14, 2013, 11:44:28 AM
I think I will just have to settle for both batteries. Thanks again. try to zap last night and it was a perfect zap 30g  resist A1 wire with 30g NR nick wire. at 75volt.  zapped.

my spec:
160+270 = 430uf 70-80 volts seems to be a good starting point.


New questions. Notice you put on the drawing Pwr LED. I can't seem to find a LED that will take only 1 AA battery. 

Can you please direct me to the right directions?

would  i need to run any resistor?


Thanks for all your help again.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 14, 2013, 12:53:38 PM

New questions. Notice you put on the drawing Pwr LED. I can't seem to find a LED that will take only 1 AA battery. 

Can you please direct me to the right directions?

would  i need to run any resistor?


Thanks for all your help again.

The On/Off L.E.D. is optional. If you would like to use one, you will need to build this simple "Joule Thief" circuit --> Shown Here (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6434.html#msg6434)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: loadstar on August 20, 2013, 08:19:13 PM
First, thanks to everyone who's posted in here thus far and for breaktru for hosting and supporting this forum. After reading through every post in this thread as well as reading through some threads on other forums I figured it was time to take a stab at making one of these myself. While having literally 0 experience with having to hand-wrap res/no res wire together the whole vaping thing has gotten me back into a number of old hobbies of mine, one being electronics, and I figured this was a good starting place. My spools of kanthal and nickel only arrived today. Over the weekend I collected what I figured would be the majority of parts needed to complete the LM2577 version as finding 120uf /330v caps at my local parts shops was impossible. I was unable to find an LM2577 anywhere either. Luckily today I was able to scoop up a couple cheap kodak funsavers from a local bargain shop for about $4 a piece. These kits both had totally different configs from one another but followed the same general schematics theme as the kodak pictured in the subsequent schematic.

All that being said, I only picked up two of these cameras. Each has 1 160uf/330v cap. Doubling these would obv equal 320uf, and I'm wondering if thats going to be sufficient? Would I just hold the switch down longer? Also, I only have 1 P.B. switch. I just dug through every old box I could find looking for all my old electronics crap hoping on another but came up with nothing of use for this project. It's been over a decade since I've played with any of this stuff and therefore I feel like a total n00b.
Is there an alternate way to bleed out the caps after charging/zapping? I have a 15k res, but without the P.B. I'm assuming I could bypass it all together and just hold the leads together? I'd prefer not to blow it up just yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: xbizzle84 on August 21, 2013, 01:29:08 AM
new to this forum but wanted to say thanks for this thread. its working like a charm.

i wanted to touch on a post that was asking about both batteries(9v & 1.5v). i have also made the voltage divider with the specs that were mentioned and am not getting any power to the board. the meter stays on, but will not power the flash board.
my build is a kodak board with a total of 340uF. running the vellemanPMLCDL. i have a switch hooked up to the meter but the board stays on with the AA battery. i would love to have the same switch control both units. i used the same specs as mentioned.
Vin = 9v
R1 = 20K
R2 = 4.7K
Vout = 1.713v

i can wire up car alarms, but this is something new to me. any help would be greatly appreciated.

one more thing...
i cannot get the meter to stay stable. i used the pm/res resistor pack and set the meter so it would read up to 200V. voltage still drops. i know that it was mentioned that i need to measure the internal resistance and add resistance in series. i have no clue where to put the resistor.
i have a 15K resistor for bleed down.

 again, any help would be great.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 21, 2013, 09:38:37 AM
new to this forum but wanted to say thanks for this thread. its working like a charm.

i wanted to touch on a post that was asking about both batteries(9v & 1.5v). i have also made the voltage divider with the specs that were mentioned and am not getting any power to the board. the meter stays on, but will not power the flash board.
my build is a kodak board with a total of 340uF. running the vellemanPMLCDL. i have a switch hooked up to the meter but the board stays on with the AA battery. i would love to have the same switch control both units. i used the same specs as mentioned.
Vin = 9v
R1 = 20K
R2 = 4.7K
Vout = 1.713v

i can wire up car alarms, but this is something new to me. any help would be greatly appreciated.

one more thing...
i cannot get the meter to stay stable. i used the pm/res resistor pack and set the meter so it would read up to 200V. voltage still drops. i know that it was mentioned that i need to measure the internal resistance and add resistance in series. i have no clue where to put the resistor.
i have a 15K resistor for bleed down.

 again, any help would be great.

I haven't tried powering off of just the 9v w/ the voltage divider. I'm going to have to actually build it and let you know what's up. I know that panel meter draws 1ma (well within the capability of a 9v batt) but not sure what the flash board draws. Under load the 1.7v may be actually lower so I will need to see what the drop is and if I will need to calculate for a higher voltage for the FB. Can you put a volt test meter on the 1.7v output and power up the flash and see what it drops to?
I found a comment that the meter is spec'd at >100M ohm input impedance but is actually 10M ohm. Still it's high enough to not drain down the cap. Is it dropping fast or slow?
With a 10M ohm input impedance, adding another resistor in series is not needed w/ this meter. The resistor pack for the Velleman meter is to change the max high scale reading of the meter.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: xbizzle84 on August 21, 2013, 10:55:01 AM
hmm..i dont think i can put the meter on te FB @ 1.7v and charge the caps because they wont charge, but maybe with just a standard AA? unless putting the meter and trying to charge with the divider will give me the results i need. ill try both and let you know. maybe theres a simpler way to use both batteries but have the same switch turn the board and DM on/off?
yes, the meter was suppsed to be rated very high but doesnt seem like it. it drains about .1V/sec. i used the resitors to have it read up to 200v, but maybe if i have it set to read @ max 500V(or whatever the highest setting is) maybe itll drop even slower? when i was using a cheap DMM i would set @ the highest V settting and it would help with the drain. maybe ill try that too.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 21, 2013, 11:28:54 AM
hmm..i dont think i can put the meter on te FB @ 1.7v and charge the caps because they wont charge, but maybe with just a standard AA? unless putting the meter and trying to charge with the divider will give me the results i need. ill try both and let you know. maybe theres a simpler way to use both batteries but have the same switch turn the board and DM on/off?
yes, the meter was suppsed to be rated very high but doesnt seem like it. it drains about .1V/sec. i used the resitors to have it read up to 200v, but maybe if i have it set to read @ max 500V(or whatever the highest setting is) maybe itll drop even slower? when i was using a cheap DMM i would set @ the highest V settting and it would help with the drain. maybe ill try that too.

You may have misunderstood. Put your cheap DMM on the flash board input at the 1.7v input and not the panel meter so to read the voltage when firing up the FB.

Yes you can use ONE on/off switch if you break the negative which is in common with both batteries. Omit the on/off switches for both positive legs.

Using a high scale such as the 500v range of your DMM won't show you tenths or hundreds of a volt so seeing the drop will not be noticeable but it's still there. You will see it only when it eventually drops 1 whole volt. I don't think a tenth of a volt in 1 sec will be a problem. It's the low input impedance panel meters that drop rapidly that will be a problem.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 21, 2013, 12:09:44 PM
Using ONE On/Off switch for 9v battery and a 1.5v AA battery.
See attached image............
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: xbizzle84 on August 21, 2013, 12:48:20 PM
Looks like that'll work perfectly! Looks like I have some improvements to make later tonight. Thanks for all the help.
The voltage drop is very minimal I found when I bleed it down from about 100V.i just thought there might have been a way to make it stay at a certain voltage without drop. I'm extremely happy with the set up I have now. I'll post some pictures when I get the chance
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 21, 2013, 05:24:03 PM
i wanted to touch on a post that was asking about both batteries(9v & 1.5v). i have also made the voltage divider with the specs that were mentioned and am not getting any power to the board. the meter stays on, but will not power the flash board.

Vin = 9v
R1 = 20K
R2 = 4.7K
Vout = 1.713v

i just tried out the voltage divider and this is my conclusion:
A voltage divider will not work for the flash board circuit due to its load. Under load the voltage drops to a half of volt. I tried several configurations and even at 8v for Vout, it still drops to a half of volt.
Use two separate batteries, 9v and 1.5v. Otherwise you would need to build a 1.5v regulator.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: xbizzle84 on August 22, 2013, 02:45:39 AM
the switch wont work for both batteries for some reason.
it works but the meter doesnt read right and the caps wont charge
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: jonas44 on August 22, 2013, 10:36:26 AM
the switch wont work for both batteries for some reason.
it works but the meter doesnt read right and the caps wont charge

Looking at the circuit, it looks like it will work with 1 switch. Have you checked your wiring?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on August 22, 2013, 10:47:07 AM
OK, I fell WAY the hell behind on this thread so will try and catch up on what I saw.

Quote
If you can not get used flash cameras, Electronic Goldmine has them on sale. 10 for $4.00
SALE! Super Strobe Board (Package of 10) (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610B)
cheap weldi ng
You just had me glaring at my new MIG...

Sadly, now listing $14.90
OK, I feel a little better now.  I'll stick with the MIG :D


Hey Breaktru or anyone for that matter have you tried that meter you linked by chance yet? Would it be a good choice to stick in a sparko? I have a cheapo meter I use for most things but would like to add one to the welder and the price is fine for me if it will work.
I almost always have my DMM (one of them) leads attached to the caps themselves.  Tried wiring in a voltage display, but all I had was the 2-wire ones which do NOT play nice here.

I tried so many batteries and I do hear the charge but when I touch the wires nothing happens. Do you think I can use a AW IMR 14500 battery safely?
If you're hearing the charge (and the pitch is rising), my gut feeling is that you have a short somewhere that's draining it.

Nice work  :rockin smiley:
Congrats on your successful welds. Most first time users don't have that luck and need practice with the technique.
Shit.....I STILL can't consistant welds >:(


And my offer still stands for anyone that can't get the photo charge boards/caps.  Still have some extras and was planning on raiding Walmart again soon.  Shoot me a PM
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: xbizzle84 on August 22, 2013, 11:06:52 AM
Looking at the circuit, it looks like it will work with 1 switch. Have you checked your wiring?

yes. ive checked the wiring again this morning and same result. the meter keeps reading with "low batt" after switch is off and the reading is off. i have 1.5V to board and 9v to meter but for some reason its not working properly with meter not reading right and caps not charging. anyone know what im doing wrong?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 22, 2013, 11:12:45 AM
yes. ive checked the wiring again this morning and same result. the meter keeps reading with "low batt" after switch is off and the reading is off. i have 1.5V to board and 9v to meter but for some reason its not working properly with meter not reading right and caps not charging. anyone know what im doing wrong?

Sounds like the 1.5v is back feeding the DM meter. How about a diode to block back feed for the 1.5v battery
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 22, 2013, 12:09:31 PM
yes. ive checked the wiring again this morning and same result. the meter keeps reading with "low batt" after switch is off and the reading is off. i have 1.5V to board and 9v to meter but for some reason its not working properly with meter not reading right and caps not charging. anyone know what im doing wrong?
Sounds like the 1.5v is back feeding the DM meter. How about a diode to block back feed for the 1.5v battery

Before you try a diode.... Do you have the negatives of both batteries (2 wires) on one side of the switch and the negative of FB and Dig Meter on the other side of the switch (2 wires).
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: xbizzle84 on August 22, 2013, 12:53:52 PM
Yes. I tried it just like the diagram. The fb and the meter grounds on one side and the battery grounds on the other.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: loadstar on August 22, 2013, 10:10:52 PM
my message above can be ignored. figured it all out and have been making welds!
2 x 160uf caps @ 4-5 second charge seems to make a solid weld on my unit.
also managed to score a massive amount of used disposables from a photo processing place for playing with a few more versions of this.

thanks for all the tips.

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 23, 2013, 07:26:49 AM
Is there an alternate way to bleed out the caps after charging/zapping? I have a 15k res, but without the P.B. I'm assuming I could bypass it all together and just hold the leads together? I'd prefer not to blow it up just yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The bleed down resistor w/ a pushbutton works well when using a volt meter. If you over shoot your intended voltage you can tap the pushbutton to bring down your voltage to your target voltage.
If you are not using a PB you can use a DPDT on/off switch. The on position will power up the flash board from the battery and the off position will cut battery pwr and discharge the cap thru the bleed down resistor.
If you break the Negative side of the battery w/ an on/off switch you can use a SPDT switch. The center position will be ground, top position will be to neg of batt and bottom position will be to resistor and the other side of resistor will be to positive of caps.

my message above can be ignored. figured it all out and have been making welds!
2 x 160uf caps @ 4-5 second charge seems to make a solid weld on my unit.
also managed to score a massive amount of used disposables from a photo processing place for playing with a few more versions of this.
thanks for all the tips.
Sorry I missed your 1st post loadstar.
Nice going. Glad it worked out. Good score with used cameras.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: xbizzle84 on August 25, 2013, 11:00:54 PM
im not sure on how to add a resistor in series with the low input impedance of the volt meter. can someone show me a diagram? thank you
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 26, 2013, 06:55:43 AM
im not sure on how to add a resistor in series with the low input impedance of the volt meter. can someone show me a diagram? thank you


Have you determined the size of the resistor needed yet? If it is a 3 wire meter, it goes between the positive of the capacitor and the yellow or white lead of the meter.

Reply #332 shows where and Reply #102 shows how to calculate input impedance.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MaNurse on August 27, 2013, 01:38:26 AM
Thanks a lot breaktru!

(http://i.imgur.com/jxj9UcB.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 27, 2013, 07:26:59 AM
Thanks a lot breaktru!
Well done MaNurse and congrats on your build :beer-toast:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Squance on August 27, 2013, 09:46:10 AM
Nice job on the welder. I got to get started on making one. I just need to pick up some red and black banana plugs first
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: bustedf00 on August 27, 2013, 05:18:16 PM
Breaktru,

I have a new question. Is there anyways for me to have the Volt DM to  be able to reads out ohm?I want to build all in one. put some 510 connector on my zapper to be able to reads ohm of the atomizer as-well. Prefer to have only one LCD DM that can do both.

If yes, please explain how i can go about that.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 27, 2013, 06:05:00 PM
Breaktru,

I have a new question. Is there anyways for me to have the Volt DM to  be able to reads out ohm?I want to build all in one. put some 510 connector on my zapper to be able to reads ohm of the atomizer as-well. Prefer to have only one LCD DM that can do both.

If yes, please explain how i can go about that.

There is a kit if you would like to install two displays at: Madvapes (http://www.madvapes.com/ohm-meter-kit.html)

update:
I found this circuit. You would need switches to isolate the volts from ohms. Also see: Ohm meter (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,902.0.html)

(http://electronics-diy.com/schematics/951/Low-Ohm-1.png)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Pantera on August 27, 2013, 07:22:50 PM
That would be so cool to have one DM for two functions. Who is going to be the first to build it
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 29, 2013, 05:04:13 PM
Back on sale: SALE! Super Strobe Board 10 for $5 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610B)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: antfuzz on September 25, 2013, 06:34:00 PM
I've been wanting to build a wire welder for some time. I've read through this thread several times along with some other information I found. I came across plans that uses a 24 V power source. The cost of the parts is  a bit higher but it appears to be a very simple build. Would love to hear your thoughts on this design.


(http://f.cl.ly/items/0d220D0T0F3f3B2r2m1z/welder.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on September 25, 2013, 07:34:36 PM
Would love to hear your thoughts on this design.

My thoughts:
The On/Off switch would create a dead short. You need to put it in series w/ either the input (+) or (-).
I would suggest a momentary pushbutton at the input.
I don't know the details of the 24v power supply. I hope it's a DC supply. I'm assuming that the 100 ohm resistor would prevent damage when the output leads are shorted to weld. A 5watt resistor is not need. A 1/4 watt will do (much smaller is physical size). The circuit is low current.

I'm partial to the flash camera circuit. It's cheap and easy.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: CraigHB on September 25, 2013, 08:33:04 PM
Aside from the obvious issues with that circuit, you can build a good spot welder with some caps and a 12V power supply.  You need 3 caps 2 to 3 Farads each in parallel.  The caps required are quite large.  Something like that would not work well at all as a wire welder, would just eat the wires instead of welding them.  Metal welding is normally done with a high current and a low voltage, but for welding two fine wires together, you want the higher voltage and lower current of the flash circuit.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: antfuzz on September 26, 2013, 01:38:10 PM
Thanks for you feedback.

The power supply is 24 Vdc 150 mA  3.6 W.

Here's a video demonstrating it. So I guess it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8sRMME7SqQ
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on September 26, 2013, 06:04:38 PM
What I don't like about it in the video is keeping it powered on. The resistor helps keep the power supply from burning out while the leads are held together but if you don't power it off while disconnecting the welded coil you can zap yourself. I would rather use a momentary push button to charge the caps and let go before welding.

Now I understand the 3 switches for the caps. So that you can add capacitance as needed. Seems to work for the user in the vid but I like the fine tuning of the Spark-O-Matic with a voltage range for all kinds of wire gauge and types.

The power supply is a 150ma. So why the heavy duty parts? Also using that pwr supply ties you to a wall socket.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: katrev on September 27, 2013, 07:05:38 AM
the welder i use is pretty similar  ; 24V ac - rectifier bridge ( 4 diodes) -1 capacitor 35V 2200 uF .Works for my silver wire/0,17 resistance wire , but i use a temporary button to charge the capacitor ( 4-5 seconds).
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vallentin on September 27, 2013, 01:34:48 PM
Done the Fuji (a little different) circuit with an 18K 5W bleeder resistor.
Packed in a small laptop PSU with zip ties and hot glue. No meter, no LED (i don't need them 'cause I use my ear for it).
Works like a charm!
Yesterday I successfully recoiled 5 Kanger eGo CC replacement heads. Spot on at 2.4 ohm, 6 wraps of 0.2 mm kanthal on 3mm silica wick  (added an another strand of 2.5mm on top for flavor) and copper wire from an old IDE cable. Simple copper, not silver coated.
The old coils were thinned down from repeated dry burns and the old silica was a mess  scared:.
I will upload some pictures of my build sometime later.
Thanks breakthru!
 ;cheers;
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on September 27, 2013, 02:17:39 PM
Nice going val  :rockin smiley:
A 5 watt bleeder resistor is not necessary. 1/4 watt will do (low current circuit).
You might want to rethink using bare copper. eJuice and copper do not mix well. A coated copper would be better. Just a thought.
Congrats on your build
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vallentin on September 27, 2013, 02:25:36 PM
Will do for the moment.
Thanks for the tip. I will dismantle one head after a week of heavy use to see how is doing in the mix with the juice.
I'm waiting for a bunch of genesys atties and other stuff from fasttech and I will redo all my Kanger coils then. Using silver coated wire.
5 watt was at hand.
 :beer-toast:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vallentin on September 27, 2013, 04:13:10 PM
The build
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: theDom on September 27, 2013, 04:35:34 PM
Congrats on your welder vallentin  :applaude:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vallentin on September 27, 2013, 04:45:38 PM
Thanks, Dom
That Fuji board used to be a Joule Thief. Now it has been re-purposed. :D
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: mjacksonrigg on September 27, 2013, 05:09:51 PM
That Fuji board used to be a Joule Thief. Now it has been re-purposed. :D

Cool re-purposing
Good job
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vallentin on September 27, 2013, 06:13:55 PM
Thanks!
Considering the fact that everything inside that box and the box itself came from scrapped parts, yes, you're right. It is cool.
On/Off button came from an old Kyocera printer. I have that small case for about 10 years now from an old 286 laptop PSU (5 and 12V type). Touch switches from a couple of defective lcd monitors. And so on...
With the same mini touch switches I had replaced my Lavatube2 and Vamo fire buttons. Because of misfiring and/or poor quality firing switch. You can't tell the difference.
I'll show you how if you're interested. It's a 10 minutes job (cut/file/superglue). The trickiest part is putting everything back together...
I never buy electronics if I can reuse the so called "junk".
The coolest part? I don't care about the welder looks. It works!
All I paid for was half a stick of hot glue.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: werkkrew on October 01, 2013, 09:51:09 AM
Thank you all for the great information found here.  Following it I have just finished my build and I have a few questions:

1) Is it possible to modify this setup so it can run from Li Ion batteries, ideally I would like to use some of my protected 18650's to power this thing.  Using a 4.2-3.7v battery might remove the need for a joule theif but I understand the board may not work at that voltage.  I have seen a lot of other zappers in the wild which run on these batteries though so I wonder what flash circuit they are using.

2) I built mine with the 2 optional LED's.  The power on LED does not work at all and the charging LED barely works.  I understand I have to build a "joule theif" for the power LED to function but I am wondering about the intended purpose of the charging LED, mine only lights up a tiny bit when I have the caps charged to ~300v which is way higher than we need.  Is there a way to make this LED light up under less load?

3) Did you guys ever settle on which LCD Voltmeter is the best option for this build?  I would like mine to show the true voltage and I see some mention of ones that might work but not 100% sure on which one is the best choice for this build.

Finally, I wanted to see what sort of success you guys were having with these.  I was primarily using 30ga kanthal and 30ga .999 silver with limited success.  I managed to build 2 coils where the NR leads didnt snap off but I am not confident in the welds at all.  90% of the time my NR leads break off during wrapping.  Does anyone have results with this method they are very confident in?  If so, what materials work best? 

At this point I feel like I'd be a lot more confident in just tying square knots...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 01, 2013, 11:54:47 AM
Thank you all for the great information found here.  Following it I have just finished my build and I have a few questions:
Glad we can help and welcome to the forum

1) Is it possible to modify this setup so it can run from Li Ion batteries, ideally I would like to use some of my protected 18650's to power this thing.  Using a 4.2-3.7v battery might remove the need for a joule theif but I understand the board may not work at that voltage.  I have seen a lot of other zappers in the wild which run on these batteries though so I wonder what flash circuit they are using.
The guys using the Li-ion battery are using 2 in series to power a LM2577 board. The flash board only requires a single 1.5AA battery. Anymore voltage would damage the board.
LED's are really not needed so you don't have to install them.
The advantage of using the F.B. over the LM2577 is you can use the free battery that came with the camera instead of an expensive Li-ion (2). The caps are free and the F.B. is free.

2) I built mine with the 2 optional LED's.  The power on LED does not work at all and the charging LED barely works.  I understand I have to build a "joule theif" for the power LED to function but I am wondering about the intended purpose of the charging LED, mine only lights up a tiny bit when I have the caps charged to ~300v which is way higher than we need.  Is there a way to make this LED light up under less load?
I have omitted the charge LED because of the higher voltage needed. If you MUST install one, use a standard LED with a resistor in series on the output caps. You would have to find the optimum resistance for the voltage output you are using.

3) Did you guys ever settle on which LCD Voltmeter is the best option for this build?  I would like mine to show the true voltage and I see some mention of ones that might work but not 100% sure on which one is the best choice for this build.
Most of the LCD meters are LOW input impedance which will drain the cap voltage about 0.1v per second without the series resistor. You would need to find a high input impedance meter so not to drain the cap voltage. I mentioned the link in the original post.

Finally, I wanted to see what sort of success you guys were having with these.  I was primarily using 30ga kanthal and 30ga .999 silver with limited success.  I managed to build 2 coils where the NR leads didnt snap off but I am not confident in the welds at all.  90% of the time my NR leads break off during wrapping.  Does anyone have results with this method they are very confident in?  If so, what materials work best? 
Usually the NR wire breaks and not the weld due to the bending and weakening of the wire. Another option is to weld the NR after the Kanthal/nichrome is wrapped around the wick.

At this point I feel like I'd be a lot more confident in just tying square knots...
Ay Ay Matey!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: werkkrew on October 01, 2013, 12:12:08 PM
Thanks for the reply.

I think I want to re-do my build without the LED's but with a Meter.

Quote
Most of the LCD meters are LOW input impedance which will drain the cap voltage about 0.1v per second without the series resistor. You would need to find a high input impedance meter so not to drain the cap voltage. I mentioned the link in the original post.

Will this meter, the one you mentioned (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2131135&catalogId=10001&CID=MERCH), do the job correctly?:

If I could find one with a backlight, like the one used in this zapper (http://www.mevs-mods.co.uk/product/_zapperv2_), I would really like that.

By the way, here is a shot of the internals of the "Mevs-Modz Zapper V2" (http://i.imgur.com/tdH1NPr.jpg) , can anyone help identify the capacitor and voltmeter used here?  I didn't have much luck searching for the parts by using the numbers I can see in the image.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 01, 2013, 12:48:59 PM
Yes model PMLCDL is a high input impedance. The resistor kit is also needed.

The Mev zapper meter does NOT look like a high impedance meter. Watch how rapidly the voltage drops in the video.
You will have to overshoot the weld voltage and weld when the meter approaches the target voltage
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: werkkrew on October 01, 2013, 12:56:18 PM
Yes model PMLCDL is a high input impedance. The resistor kit is also needed.

The Mev zapper meter is NOT a high impedance. Watch how rapidly the voltage drops.

That's where I get lost though, if it already has high input impedance why do I need the additional set of resistors?

Do you think I could buy a super cheap $5 multi meter and rip the screen out of it and somehow hack that into working by making it stay set to volts, I don't feel like waiting for a part to come from an online order...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 01, 2013, 02:58:21 PM
The meter I used w/ the series resistor was LOW input impedance. No resistor for a HI I.I. meter. The additional resistors for the PMLCDL is for setting the range. The meter comes set for <200mV. You have other options for a 20V, 200V and a 500V range.

A cheap $5 multimeter has LOW I.I. What I did with one of my Spark-O-Matics is connect a decent multimeter across the output lead jacks and did not use a panel meter. Like this attached. Also seen in the video
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on October 01, 2013, 08:46:25 PM
Usually the NR wire breaks and not the weld due to the bending and weakening of the wire. Another option is to weld the NR after the Kanthal/nichrome is wrapped around the wick.
Never thought of that one....will have to give it a go.


ETA -
A cheap $5 multimeter has LOW I.I. What I did with one of my Spark-O-Matics is connect a decent multimeter across the output lead jacks and did not use a panel meter. Like this attached. Also seen in the video
This is how I've been running.  Then again, I still have yet to actually put one of these in an enclosure :(  Have I THINK 7 completed/working units sitting on my bench ATM.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 07, 2013, 12:49:41 PM
This is the Spark-O-Matic with the PMLCDL panel meter for Voltage and Ohm reading.
I'm waiting on a couple of parts to complete. Once completed I'll post the schematic.
See attached photos. (Viewable by logged on members)

PHOTOS of completed Volt Ohm box in this post: CLICK HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg9175.html#msg9175)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 08, 2013, 01:04:52 PM
Your clips should be of good quality. The spring tension should be strong. The inside of the clip should be flat and flush for maximum surface to contact the wires being welded.
I used a 10 gauge or 12 gauge solid wire and soldered it into the top and bottom of the jaws of an Alligator/Crocodile clip and lightly filed it flat as shown in the attached photos. You do NOT want to use the jaws alone for clamping down on the resistance wire because it will put a kink in it and it will break when bending. Also there is minimal contact surface.
This is what a GOOD welding clip looks like, see below (members only)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on October 08, 2013, 02:09:43 PM
Damn man...you always have to take just that one step further, don't ya? :beer-toast:

Do you have a decent source for the aligator clips?  Every place that I've gabbed the from  I wind up with those cheap ass barelt riveted ones that get misaligned after you use them more than twice.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 08, 2013, 03:26:45 PM
I got a box full from my old man about 15-20 years ago. I don't have that many left so I treat them as gold now.

I don't know if these are the same but they sure look like them. They are a 10A rating

SilverTronic (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Silvertronic/501784/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMt7hIMNlU8hBP1O8EzYIe8g)

Mueller (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mueller-Electric/BU-60/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvLREgZvadcFG%2fBO9w8RG5m)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vallentin on October 08, 2013, 04:01:14 PM

SilverTronic (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Silvertronic/501784/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMt7hIMNlU8hBP1O8EzYIe8g)

Mueller (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mueller-Electric/BU-60/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvLREgZvadcFG%2fBO9w8RG5m)

Nope. I have those and they're crap (misalign from time to time).
This is what we need to get:
(http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/102946/) (https://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/images/products/1/1/1/Alligator-Clips.jpg) (http://static.tme.eu/katalog_pics/0/a/b/0ab71ff85d8047bab55471dacc62e871/crclre-03.jpg)

Got mine from tme.eu (last image location). Crocodile, not gator clips/
Better yet: http://www.fasttech.com/product/1095700-test-alligator-crocodile-clips-clamps-large-size
$2.56 / 20 large size pack
Hope it helps
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 08, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
Got mine from tme.eu (last image location). Crocodile, not gator clips/
Hope it helps

Thanks for the heads up about the clips.
It depends on where you are from. Here in the USA we called them Alligator. Elsewhere they are called Crocodile.
Although in the USA they do sell both and they are totally different styles as shown below in attachment....
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on October 09, 2013, 09:07:00 AM
Got mine from tme.eu (last image location). Crocodile, not gator clips/
Better yet: http://www.fasttech.com/product/1095700-test-alligator-crocodile-clips-clamps-large-size
$2.56 / 20 large size pack
Hope it helps
Thanks for the reminder!!!  I think that I ordered some of those from FastTech a while back and they got buried in the black-hole-of-parts-that-I-really-don't -need-but -might-be-able-to-use-someday (BHOPTIRDNBMBATUS for short)  ;cheers;
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: katrev on October 09, 2013, 09:17:28 AM
I got good results soldering small pieces of copper  inside the jaws ( from a copper sheet) ,but even better results using binding posts instead :)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 09, 2013, 04:05:06 PM
Butt Weld

This is my most successful welding technique. It's a 3 weld process but is stronger and it does not break when winding the coils. The first 2 weld attempts melt both NR wire and Kanthal/Nichrome ends causing a mushroom end. The 3rd attempt does the actual welding.  I mentioned it a while back but here are some photos shown below (members only). The bottom photo is where I get my NR wire from. It's a single strand from a stranded 18 gauge wire.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on October 09, 2013, 05:00:59 PM
Butt Weld

This is my most successful welding technique. It's a 3 weld process but is stronger and it does not break when winding the coils. The first 2 weld attempts melt both NR wire and Kanthal/Nichrome ends causing a mushroom end. The 3rd attempt does the actual welding.  I mentioned it a while back but here are some photos shown below (members only). The bottom photo is where I get my NR wire from. It's a stranded 18 gauge wire.
So you are intentionally breaking the first 2 welds off to give you that "mushroom" for the final weld?  That;s about what my successful welds have been, only I was not intentionally breaking them. LOL
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 09, 2013, 05:18:27 PM
I'm not breaking off the first 2 welds. The first 2 just arc and melt and usually by the 3rd weld it tacts complete.
With the overlapping method I find that the NR wire past the weld has weakened and it sometimes breaks during wrapping. Not the weld but the wire.

It helps using a Magnifier Visor matching up the butt ends
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: werkkrew on October 10, 2013, 09:39:06 AM
Really looking forward to the parts list and schematic for the new and improved unit!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MidnighToker on October 10, 2013, 02:03:57 PM
It helps using a Magnifier Visor matching up the butt ends
LMAO!!!

At this point, my eyes are so bad that I HAVE to use my magnifying lamp to even attempt this.  (and yet I can hit a bullseye @ 25 yard with a 45  :Thinking:)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vallentin on October 10, 2013, 05:33:22 PM
I'm not breaking off the first 2 welds. The first 2 just arc and melt and usually by the 3rd weld it tacts complete.

What voltage you use for  the first 2 welds and what voltage for the third?
Thanks!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 10, 2013, 06:42:49 PM
Same voltage for all 3 welds. Use the same voltage that you are using for your overlap welds. I use 74v with 340uF caps. Also depends on the gauge wires you are using. Your setup may require a different voltage. Trial and error is what should be used.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vallentin on October 11, 2013, 02:11:43 PM
Got it!
Thanks again!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 11, 2013, 06:07:11 PM
Whew! I finally completed and test the new Spark-O-Matic with the Voltage and Ohm meter.
It's working very well and is pretty accurate I must say.
See the attached photos below (logged on members only) - Click on photo to enlarge
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 11, 2013, 06:11:12 PM
See attached schematic for the new version.
Please, if you are going to make one... give credit where credit is due.
I see a lot of folks have copied the previous version and hawked it as there own creation.  raged:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 12, 2013, 02:56:34 PM
Ooopps!, I knew I forgot something. I had intentions to put in a 510 connector. Well anyway here it is.....
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: iWrong on October 22, 2013, 12:30:11 PM
See attached schematic for the new version.
Breaktru explain, please.
I see point marked as P1, P2, P3 and Row P0 on schematic.  Something connected to these?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 22, 2013, 01:57:37 PM
Breaktru explain, please.
I see point marked as P1, P2, P3 and Row P0 on schematic.  Something connected to these?

The PMLCDL meter comes with a solder bridge between P1 and P0. This is for the decimal point place. It seems to work fine for both the 20v and  the 200v scale.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: charming on October 23, 2013, 07:42:18 AM
Very good breaktru. Very cool adding an ohm meter option  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: The Goldfish on October 23, 2013, 11:25:02 AM
That is a righteous build. Very nicely done!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Puff on November 07, 2013, 11:13:22 PM
New to the forum and been trying to reed a lot. Is the a thread on just the DIY ohm reader. I did a search and came up with nothing.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on November 08, 2013, 06:23:02 AM
New to the forum and been trying to reed a lot. Is the a thread on just the DIY ohm reader. I did a search and came up with nothing.

Welcome Puff. Here's one: Ohmmeter (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,902.0.html)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Visus on November 13, 2013, 08:32:11 AM
wow uber solidfy basted workstation worthy of a vapian dynasty golden wand
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vallentin on November 15, 2013, 05:19:09 PM
Same voltage for all 3 welds. Use the same voltage that you are using for your overlap welds. I use 74v with 340uF caps. Also depends on the gauge wires you are using. Your setup may require a different voltage. Trial and error is what should be used.

Got about 15 meters of wrapping wire (silvered copper) from a DIY jewlery store and I finally got mushroom welds just like yours, Breaktru.
Thanks again for the info!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on November 15, 2013, 08:25:27 PM
Good news vall  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Ransom on November 21, 2013, 09:44:22 PM
In this diagram  http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=733.0;attach=1872;image 

I am assuming Plus and minus refer to the positive and negative from the battery and On/Off refer to the charging switch?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: jomurp on November 22, 2013, 05:30:11 PM
In this diagram  http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=733.0;attach=1872;image 

I am assuming Plus and minus refer to the positive and negative from the battery and On/Off refer to the charging switch?

Is that the same flash camera board that you are using. It looks different than the Kodak and Fuji boards.
The Plus goes to the battery positive. The Minus to the battery negative and it looks like the on/off charges the board. That photo was posted by vallentin. Maybe you should ask him.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vallentin on November 23, 2013, 03:24:21 PM
In this diagram  http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=733.0;attach=1872;image 

I am assuming Plus and minus refer to the positive and negative from the battery and On/Off refer to the charging switch?

Yes!
But like I said, my board is a little bit different than the standard one, that's how I did it, but the principle remains the same.
A little common sense and you're good to go.
BTW, that board came from a reusable Kodak camera.
I don't know why it's that different, but it is, and it works!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Ransom on November 24, 2013, 02:49:40 AM
Yes I have two of that board, its from a newer fuji camera.  The circuit is straight forward I just cant seem to get the switch to make it charge for some reason :(   I did order several of the older kodak boards though.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: binhdo on December 06, 2013, 02:59:11 AM
breaktru, do you have a complete parts list of your build with the digital panel meter and where to buy the parts? i don't know where to find the push buttons, switches, and what type of wire to use. per the diagram there are 1x AA and 2x 9V batteries, am i wrong? according to the pictures of the unit, there seems to be only 1x 9v battery.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on December 06, 2013, 09:49:44 AM
breaktru, do you have a complete parts list of your build with the digital panel meter and where to buy the parts? i don't know where to find the push buttons, switches, and what type of wire to use. per the diagram there are 1x AA and 2x 9V batteries, am i wrong? according to the pictures of the unit, there seems to be only 1x 9v battery.

There are TWO 9v batteries. They are stacked on top of each other. That is why it looks like only one in the photo.
All the parts needed can be FOUND RIGHT HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg8251.html#msg8251)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: binhdo on December 09, 2013, 01:12:38 AM
There are TWO 9v batteries. They are stacked on top of each other. That is why it looks like only one in the photo.
All the parts needed can be FOUND RIGHT HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg8251.html#msg8251)

thanks breaktru, could you also include the 200 ohm multiturn trimmer?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on December 09, 2013, 07:00:31 AM
thanks breaktru, could you also include the 200 ohm multiturn trimmer?

If you want to buy from the same supplier (All Electronics), they don't have a multi-turn 200 ohm trimmer. Use the 500 ohm (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/MTPS-500/500-OHM-MULTITURN-TRIMMER-POT-5/32-LEADS/1.html) or you can buy 200 ohm from any electronic supplier like Digikey (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=14&y=16&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=64WR200LF) or Mouser (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/BI-Technologies/64WR200LF/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugg4nkPaQXEVQptQlwmJzdfHl7O6Kz014Y%3d) or Newark (http://www.newark.com/bi-technologies-tt-electronics/64wr200lf/trimmer-potentiometer-200-ohm/dp/15M3121) or Arrow (http://parts.arrow.com/item/detail/bi-technologies/64wr200lf#yMcc)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: CraigHB on December 11, 2013, 04:01:45 AM
That link for the hookup wire at All Electronics is really good.  They have by far the best prices I've found for that stuff and we all use the crap out of it.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: BTO2013 on December 14, 2013, 06:26:23 AM
Hi Breaktru or anyone who may be able to help

I have all the parts for the Spark-O-Matic
I can not get the PMLCDL to work at all
I have tried to follow the schematic in Post #414, but I am missing something
I am not going to be adding the Ohm Meter, so I have been bypassing that part of it
But, connecting directly to the PMLCDL or trying to add in resistors as stated isn't working out for me.
I am not getting any real readings,, nothing even remotely close

My Etek 10709 reads and works perfectly

So, I have the flash board setup, this flash board http://www.allelectronics.com/index.php?page=item&id=FSH-12
they come with a 160uF Cap, so one board stopped working I took the cap off it and paralleled it to a second board
So I have 320uF

I have the Discharge Button with a 15K 1/2W Resistor
Everything works as it should, except this panel.

I hook up a 9V batt to the PMLCDL and then try taking a reading by itself, and it either jumps all over the place
and it drains the cap
or it goes blank, or reads 1 .

No matter where in the circuit I try to take a reading.

I am just not sure what resistors to add or where, that would possibly make this thing work.
I know I am missing something, just not sure where.

Any help and I would be grateful.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on December 14, 2013, 01:23:24 PM
Hopefully the PML-CDL panel meter is not damaged. Blank or 1 may indicate that.
Anyway... the diagram that came with the meter is puzzling for sure and I found a problem with it.

I set mine up for the 200v range. The diagram indicates to solder a jumper between P3 and P0. That did not work. I used P1 and P0 and it worked fine. Make sure that ONLY P1 and P0 is jumped and not any other "P" connections.

Did you buy the additional resistor Kit?
Place a 10K resistor OVER the smd resistor at "RA" Do not remove the smd just solder over it.
Remove the shunt smd at "RB" and solder in a 9.99 Meg resistor in its place.
The resistor are in the optional kit.

This meter does NOT work with common grounds so do NOT tie in the negatives from the flashboard to the neg of the 9V for the meter.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: BTO2013 on December 14, 2013, 04:12:54 PM
That was perfect, thank you
This thing works excellent. With the Charge and discharge buttons, I can get the voltage I want.
The meter is working now, I was using the 100Kohm at RA (whooppss)
And my soldering iron gets way too hot and the tip is caked with solder
I haven't soldered in a really long time, so I am reluctant to show any pictures but I will
to show what a solder job should NOT look like.

Now I just need to jam this thing into a box.

Thank you Breaktru for the explanation, it is much appreciated
All credit goes to the people in this thread that made this possible.

(http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae110/VapeVaporTV/WP_20131214_15_58_32_Pro1_zps18cd944a.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on December 14, 2013, 05:40:58 PM
Great BTO, glad it worked out. Glad it wasn't a bad meter. The first one I got was D.O.A. had the "1......" displayed.
If you plan to do some more modding, you should seriously look into getting a soldering station. There are several topics that address them on this forum.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: BTO2013 on December 15, 2013, 12:31:04 AM
haha,, yeah,, that solder job is horrible.
But, honestly, I have seen worse. :P
I had to resolder the resistors  raged: , flux helped,  :wallbash:

About 80V is magic for me,,,

(http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae110/VapeVaporTV/WP_20131215_00_13_02_Pro_zpsf5a305a9.jpg)

Not the most pretty box in the world, but it's functional
I had some issues with the 3 SPST Rocker Switch I chose.
So, there is not on/off switch yet, can't wrap my head around the wiring.
It's a 16A 12V and I think maybe the batteries aren't enough power or, probably my wiring
I have tried every combo I can think of.

http://www.allelectronics.com/index.php?page=item&id=LRS-28B

I have another PMLCDL board, and 3 more flash boards
But I think I will look at getting a Fuji camera board, these boards I picked up are too big.
and other parts, I am going to try making another one when I get  new soldering station.

Thanks for the help again and the time you put in on this for us. It's awesome.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: ChainVaper on December 15, 2013, 08:38:01 AM
 :rockin smiley: Cool. congrats on your spark-o-matic BTO  :thumbsup:
Did you use the same parts from allelectronics.com that breaktru linked to? The push buttons and the banana jacks look the same.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: BTO2013 on December 15, 2013, 05:26:53 PM
Yeah, everything from allelectronics.com, except the PMLCDL and the Resistor pack from Jameco, this post, http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6261.html#msg6261
The rest from the list in this post,, http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg8251.html#msg8251

so, for that switch, would I be wasting my time trying to make it work?
I have 3 of them. I bought multiples of everything, never know if something will be broken, or I will break it.
I melted a couple push button switches with my junk iron.

I decided on the http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-FX888D-23BY-Digital-Soldering-FX-888D/dp/B00ANZRT4M/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1387141380&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=Hakko+FX888D+Digital+Soldering+Station#productDetails

And some Electronic Learning Kit.
It's been a while since I played with Electronics, since the early 90's
But I still remember some of it.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on December 15, 2013, 07:37:49 PM

so, for that switch, would I be wasting my time trying to make it work?
I have 3 of them. I bought multiples of everything, never know if something will be broken, or I will break it.
I melted a couple push button switches with my junk iron.

I decided on the http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-FX888D-23BY-Digital-Soldering-FX-888D/dp/B00ANZRT4M/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1387141380&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=Hakko+FX888D+Digital+Soldering+Station#productDetails


You won't be sorry with Hakko station.

Wait for the station before soldering in the on/off switch.
Just put it between the battery and the F.B. You can break either the (+) or (-)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: BTO2013 on December 15, 2013, 08:07:05 PM
Where I am running into the issue is trying to set it up to run both the 1.5v and 9v, But I can't get that working,,
Got the 1.5v side to the board working, but not enough power to turn on the LED on it
The 9V will work sort of, but I think I am going to have to go with 2 switches, one for the flash board, one for the panel
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on December 15, 2013, 08:47:58 PM
The switch you linked to requires 12v to turn on the L.E.D. so obviously 1.5v and 9v (dim glow) won't do it.
The switch is a S.P.S.T. so you would need two. One for each battery. Do NOT tie in the negatives of the 1.5v and 9v batteries if you were thinking of using only one switch and using the PML-CDL. You can use that switch but the L.E.D. won't work as designed.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: BTO2013 on December 15, 2013, 11:40:41 PM
Ok, so I had to use my second PMLCDL as the first I think bit the dust. I know it was my fault though.
This second one went real easy and is a lot cleaner, even with my junky soldering iron. I think it's set at about 800 degrees.  :wallbash:

I figured out that yeah, I got the wrong switches and they are way too big for 2 of them
I need to research switches a bit more to find the right one.
I was hoping to have one switch for both the Panel and the F.B.
A quick search isn't producing much help though, I am going to have to dig for it. getting crazy results.
Any recommendations on a good on/off switch for the SOM to control both?
I looked through the links you provided earlier. I have an idea of which one I need, but I am not familiar with switches yet.

It has been since the early 90's that I have played with stuff like this, and we didn't have this kind of internet back then :P

I saw the subject on Alligator Clips, these are the ones that I use for welding, they work very well...
CLIP MICRO ALLIGATOR COPPER 5A (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&site=us&keywords=CLIP+MICRO+ALLIGATOR+COPPER+5A&x=14&y=15&formaction=on)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on December 16, 2013, 06:49:54 AM
Ok, so I had to use my second PMLCDL as the first I think bit the dust. I know it was my fault though.
This second one went real easy and is a lot cleaner, even with my junky soldering iron. I think it's set at about 800 degrees.  :wallbash:

I figured out that yeah, I got the wrong switches and they are way too big for 2 of them
I need to research switches a bit more to find the right one.
I was hoping to have one switch for both the Panel and the F.B.
A quick search isn't producing much help though, I am going to have to dig for it. getting crazy results.
Any recommendations on a good on/off switch for the SOM to control both?
I looked through the links you provided earlier. I have an idea of which one I need, but I am not familiar with switches yet.

It has been since the early 90's that I have played with stuff like this, and we didn't have this kind of internet back then :P

I saw the subject on Alligator Clips, these are the ones that I use for welding, they work very well...
CLIP MICRO ALLIGATOR COPPER 5A (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&site=us&keywords=CLIP+MICRO+ALLIGATOR+COPPER+5A&x=14&y=15&formaction=on)

For your setup, use a DPST or DPDT on/off switch to break the two batteries. Digikey DPDT (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/OS203013MT7QN1/CKN9548-ND/1981419), Mouser DPST (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CW-Industries/GF-325-0000/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtHXLepoqNyVa0hc1yeyvR%252bBRhL0%2frC%2fKQ%3d), Allelectronics DPDT (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/SSW-77/DPDT-MINI-SLIDE-SWITCH/1.html)
Before ordering look at the datasheets for the physical size dimensions.

Clean up your iron tip and use flux before soldering. Avoid excessive heat by not holding your iron on the part too long. Thin the wire and the sw lug before soldering the wire to the sw lug.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: BTO2013 on December 16, 2013, 10:08:31 PM
I really appreciate the help.
Measurements? uhg, dude.........  :thumbsdwn2: hehe

I won't be doing any more soldering till I get the Hakko.
I also want to find a smaller flash board if I can, so I am going to get a Fuji disposable as that seems to have fit your box.
The ones that I got are an odd shape and I don't think I can cut off any parts off it to make it fit. FLASH ASSEMBLY (http://www.allelectronics.com/index.php?page=item&id=FSH-12)

I will get back to this around the first of the year. too much going on now.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Dogtown38 on February 10, 2014, 10:07:52 PM
 hay buddy I really have been reading all your great info you really do a great job! Im building my first wire welder and having problems I have a aaa fugi board wired to 306 uf on caps with a single double a battery and max volts is 36 or 40 please help I have spent a lot of time on this sucker! Thank you so much
 Chad
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 10, 2014, 10:28:51 PM
Hey Chad, Thanks.
I used the same AAA Fuji board and used a single AA battery like you. The max output should be over 300VDC. Are you reading with a multimeter? Is the scale/setting on your M/M correct? Did you triple check your wiring to the drawing?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Dogtown38 on February 10, 2014, 10:39:20 PM
I hope so im using a fluke 117 when I stack the caps the uf reads 306ish but when I power up it maxs at 39 and will drop fast when I release the charge button . To fast to make a weld do I have my resistor backwards?  Im green as hell to circuit board soldering . Dose anything seem out of the normal with out seeing it (: I cant sent a pik from my ohine to the forum
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 11, 2014, 07:24:44 AM
It's hard to trouble shoot without seeing what you done.
One thing to check is how you wired the 15k bleed down (discharge) resistor and the N/O bleed button switch.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Farnak on March 03, 2014, 08:34:20 PM
Hi all,
First I would like to thank Breaktru for all he has done and shared.
I joined because of the eJuice Me Up software and the need to look for recipes.
Then I stumbled on the Spark-O-Matic! So, I've been gathering parts and reading the threads.
Picked up 10 flash boards on sale at Electronic Goldmine. Dusted off the soldering iron and am going for it.
I have a observation for one of the members But have seen that I must post 3 times before I can attach a photo.
So, please bear with me.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Farnak on March 03, 2014, 08:51:24 PM
Post 2

The boards have a 160uf cap, so pulled one from another board and now have 320uf.
Hooked up some jumpers, connected my DMM, prepped the 32g kanthal, looked for the 32g nickel, couldn't remember where the heck I put it,
so cut the kanthal in half, (what the heck, its only a test run), installed the battery, charged her up to 80 ish volts, watched it bleed slowly down
(semi cheap DMM) and at what I felt was the right moment, touched them together!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Farnak on March 03, 2014, 09:16:19 PM
Post 3

Sudden flash and I once again had 1 piece of kanthal!
An almost perfect butt weld.
Beginners luck for sure, was trying for the over lapping, hands aren't as steady as the once were.
Just noticed I can post a photo.
So
I think I have the same boards as BTO2013 in reply 446
And you can remove quite a bit of the board and still retain the charging circuit.
The points I marked for attaching wires all have a thru hole, so you can have all wires and components on the no trace side.
I used a pair of side cutters and nibbled away the x'd out portions of the board.
Would have posted a real photo of the actual board I tested this on, but I think my camera must be with the nickel wire (sigh).
(don't think the add quote worked, Dang electrons anyhow) LOL
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on March 04, 2014, 07:36:54 AM
Very good Farnak. Way to go dude.
For my NR wire I use a single strand pulled from some 18ga stranded wire I have. It's plated copper wire, silver in appearance.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vapermd on March 17, 2014, 08:38:36 PM
Any words of wisdom or tips before I attempt this build?  I got double the amount of each component in the event I screw up (except the flash board).  But I was able to score one from Walmart photo lab for free.  So I can always hit up another one for more.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on March 17, 2014, 09:57:49 PM
As long as your follow the diagram you should have no problems.
Are you building it with the ohm meter or just the voltmeter?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vapermd on March 17, 2014, 10:34:19 PM
Without a meter at all.  The parts store in town only had an analog meter and it was busted.  My project box is big enough to add one later though.  I have a small $30 multimeter and was thinking about mounting it in the box as well.  And probably throw in a 510 connector so I can build on this box too. AND use it for "hot wraps".
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vapermd on March 17, 2014, 10:41:07 PM
Had a hard time finding that last capacitor too.  Ended up with a 100uF 35V as my 3 rd cap.  The guy assured me that it should work considering I'm not charging it to 350V.  Did he give me solid info or am I looking at disappointment?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on March 18, 2014, 07:17:05 AM
Had a hard time finding that last capacitor too.  Ended up with a 100uF 35V as my 3 rd cap.  The guy assured me that it should work considering I'm not charging it to 350V.  Did he give me solid info or am I looking at disappointment?

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but "The guy" is mistaken. A rating of 35V is 35V and not 350V.
Go back to Walmart, get another free camera and take out the cap.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vapermd on March 18, 2014, 07:58:07 AM
So I need a total of THREE capacitors off those cameras?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on March 18, 2014, 09:00:29 AM
So I need a total of THREE capacitors off those cameras?

It's not the number of caps but rather the uF total value. As long as you are approximately at 340uF. I find around 340uF works well for me. Not saying that you can't be less or more. The voltage set will need to be adjusted to what uF value you end up with. 340uF @ 74v works good for me.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: vapermd on March 18, 2014, 09:21:48 AM
I'm at 340.  It's just that last cap is 100uf/35v.  I will probably ha e to get another camera board.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Visus on March 20, 2014, 02:02:03 AM
Finally built mine it works like a champ just need an enclosure or not, using it grenade style.

4 second count joins them every time.  Its @ 4sec approximately 110v for my board falling fast on my meter.

I had 2 old cameras laying around, so I used them. 

Thanks Break



(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/1904259_10153925984405302_2090549481_n.jpg)(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/t1.0-9/1959941_10153925966940302_1535072055_n.jpg)(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/10001359_10153925966815302_54605537_n.jpg?oh=025f5ef27909705febc37c635fe5b314&oe=53B20A82)(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/1977332_10153925967040302_2034954011_n.jpg)(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1489126_10153925966675302_1612328153_n.jpg)(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/1911875_10153925995570302_240038369_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: geothee on March 20, 2014, 05:36:33 AM
Finally built mine it works like a champ just need an enclosure or not, using it grenade style.

4 second count joins them every time.  Its @ 4sec approximately 110v for my board falling fast on my meter.

I had 2 old cameras laying around, so I used them. 

Thanks Break


Congrats Visus

Looking at the photos, I see two caps. Should be now at 320uF. Break says that output voltage should be around 75v with that capacitance but if it's working good for you at 110v then great.

Most likely the falling voltage is due to your meters low impedance.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Visus on March 20, 2014, 06:38:24 AM
The other cap is 150uf so 310uf -- its really cool welding these wires.  If only I could get them aligned properly lol  I wince every time I get them close..   OMG its gonna shoot me in the eye type feeling.

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Visus on March 21, 2014, 12:25:11 AM
Making really good welds @ 3sec with 32ga and 28 ga nichrome.  My evod has never been this happy.

Arooooooooooooooooo

I had a pack of dollar store cheapie 8pk aaa batteries sitting for a long while so I use one and my times increased a bit heres me trying to make a weld..
Duracell aa battery 3 secs and golden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTecP5FMNnA
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Farnak on March 22, 2014, 12:15:51 PM
Finally got all the parts crammed into a box. She is working nicely.
I ended up changing the 3PDT to a 4PDT so as to add the Power Off Auto Bleed feature suggested by angah83.

just thinking of replacing one way on/off switch with SPDT 3 pins switch and add 1K resistor on the off pin side so that it will drain the caps when the switch is in off mode/state. is it plausible/safe?

Knowing myself, I believe this will save me from using one or more of those words that mother told me not to use :)

Once again thanks to all who have helped.
Now to try building the 44+
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Visus on March 22, 2014, 07:57:15 PM
Awesome --

No pics?  Farnak

If I used an onboard meter I would put in a drain. I find Breaks ~75v to be on the money,, In my video at about ~7secs hold on my meter its 85v with aaa batts people were saying they had good welds at lower voltages 25v-35v-etc.. --doesn't seem so in my test... 
I tap the leads before charging  to ring out the residual voltage, amazing how they can sometimes sit at 3-8v without power being applied.  Mine gets nominal use maybe once a month so its not as relevant for me..  I was thinking about purchasing an ithaka just so it would have more use.  :laughing:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on March 22, 2014, 08:29:02 PM
Awesome --

No pics?  Farnak

If I used an onboard meter I would put in a drain. I find Breaks ~75v to be on the money,, In my video at about ~7secs hold on my meter its 85v with aaa batts people were saying they had good welds at lower voltages 25v-35v-etc.. --doesn't seem so in my test... 
I tap the leads before charging  to ring out the residual voltage, amazing how they can sometimes sit at 3-8v without power being applied.  Mine gets nominal use maybe once a month so its not as relevant for me..  I was thinking about purchasing an ithaka just so it would have more use.  :laughing:

If you are using a cheap MM w/ an input impedance of less than 10M you will see a faster voltage drop than using one with 10M or better. Same hold true with panel meters.

The people using 35V are not using camera boards. They are using the LM board.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Visus on March 22, 2014, 09:28:50 PM
cen tech 5 dollar harbor freight unit with a coupon I got it for 3 bucks lol..
I read it has 1m Ir was wondering if put a resistor in series with it would it be more accurate so I  tested it with a 1m resistor in series with it --it did slow the drop  but still dropping but at a snails pace rather than rabbits pace..

Thanks for correction/enlightment on that.   I was like no- no way your making welds @those low v's but a longer duration yada yada posted in this thread makes it make sense. 

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: p_devil on March 30, 2014, 03:28:30 PM
Thank You everyone for the wealth of knowledge!!  A special thx to breaktru for putting all this together and getting me on this forum!!!   ;cheers;
Now I can finally see all the great detailed pictures which makes everything so much easier.  I made my first barbarian welder with only the information I could see as a guest!!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on March 30, 2014, 03:49:00 PM
Welcome to the forum p_devil
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: p_devil on March 30, 2014, 04:04:29 PM
Thx again Breaktru for all the assistance getting me on here!!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: p_devil on March 30, 2014, 04:37:20 PM
unmarked capacitors:

I used a dmm with max CAP 100uf to test discharged capacitors.  marked 80uf tested 81-82uf. unmarked off aaa board tested tested 100-102uf. unmarked off aa board tested OL. over load. The size of the unmarked capacitor off aa board is same as a marked 120uf capacitor. My dmm doesn't test that high. I'm assuming the next size up from 100uf is 120uf.  But I'm sure its over 102uf!!

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: p_devil on April 01, 2014, 01:17:09 AM
This is my first build using what ever I could find for cheap.

(http://s26.postimg.org/rct28zfah/DSC00109.jpg)


Works great!!! Thx breaktru!!! ;cheers;
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on April 01, 2014, 07:49:17 AM
This is my first build using what ever I could find for cheap.

Works great!!! Thx breaktru!!

Congrats  :applaude:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: michamer on April 13, 2014, 08:52:16 AM
This is my first build using what ever I could find for cheap.

Works great!!! Thx breaktru!!! ;cheers;

Nifty enclosure.  :laughing:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Farnak on May 03, 2014, 08:30:38 AM
Electronics Goldmine has strobe boards 10 for $5 again. Sale ends 5/6/14 http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610B
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: DRA on May 03, 2014, 09:01:33 AM
Electronics Goldmine has strobe boards 10 for $5 again. Sale ends 5/6/14 http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610B

Thanks
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: sk80matic on May 06, 2014, 10:27:53 PM
I just finished my first build. It was quite a fun project and I feel pretty accomplished now that it is done. I don't really have anything new to contribute as I basically copied Breaktru's schematics and instructions. I did add two AA batteries in parallel instead of just one, and it makes a huge difference in charge time compared to the single AAA that I was playing with before.

Hopefully I can get some decent welds out of this thing.

Thanks Breaktru and everyone!

I'll add some pics when my post count is high enough to.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: sk80matic on May 06, 2014, 10:29:27 PM
 ;cheers;
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: sk80matic on May 06, 2014, 10:35:13 PM
Pics as promised.
Enjoy!
:D
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: p_devil on May 06, 2014, 10:54:38 PM
AWESOME!! ;cheers;

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on May 07, 2014, 06:44:04 AM
I just finished my first build. It was quite a fun project and I feel pretty accomplished now that it is done. I don't really have anything new to contribute as I basically copied Breaktru's schematics and instructions. I did add two AA batteries in parallel instead of just one, and it makes a huge difference in charge time compared to the single AAA that I was playing with before.

Hopefully I can get some decent welds out of this thing.

Thanks Breaktru and everyone!


Great, glad my schematic helped you. Nice work
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: d_walk on May 09, 2014, 09:33:34 AM
Very neat wiring and layout sk80matic.
Good job  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: p_devil on June 19, 2014, 06:16:58 PM
hi breaktru!!!

I need help!!! raged: raged:

I'm welding 28awg kanthal to 32awg nickel.  The welds are good but as you said after the weld it becomes weak and thinner. Sometimes it holds up to the twisting coils most of the time not. Thats with the over lap method.  The butt weld method are you tapping end to end together? What if it welds on first try? I'm still getting breaks after the weld. the NR wire becomes thinner after the joint.

Thx in advance!!!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on June 19, 2014, 07:42:35 PM
hi breaktru!!!

I need help!!! raged: raged:

I'm welding 28awg kanthal to 32awg nickel.  The welds are good but as you said after the weld it becomes weak and thinner. Sometimes it holds up to the twisting coils most of the time not. Thats with the over lap method.  The butt weld method are you tapping end to end together? What if it welds on first try? I'm still getting breaks after the weld. the NR wire becomes thinner after the joint.

Thx in advance!!!

Yes I'm tapping the ends together. I never got it to weld on the first tap. It always took 3 taps which supplied a nice wide weld surface.
When you said "I'm still getting breaks after the weld" are you referring to the tap method too?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: p_devil on June 20, 2014, 12:30:25 AM
Yes. sometimes its welds on the first try but very weak weld.  I'm experimenting with lower voltage and i"ll post back with results!!! It could be the nr wire is too thin. I'm going to strip some electrical wire and try different gauges.

Thx again!!! The sparkomatic works perfect.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on June 20, 2014, 09:31:35 AM
Yes, That would have been my next 2 suggestions.

1. Try a strand of wire similar in diameter as your Kanthal
2. Dial down the voltage a tad
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Madyicstik on July 23, 2014, 11:17:00 AM
Just wondering if this can be used to weld tabs on batteries?????
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: CraigHB on July 23, 2014, 04:19:48 PM
Negative, you need a lot more power for that.  You can make a capacitive spot welder good for battery tabs with a couple large capacitors like the ones used for high power car stereo systems.  Google it and you'll find some how-to articles.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Mev on September 10, 2014, 09:27:34 PM
 Haven't been on for a while, this thread as become a monster.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: modfo on October 14, 2014, 03:46:16 PM
I hope I'm not breaking someone's conversation but I've been watching this post for ever and I have only been vaping 7 signed up cause I could see all the photos ! I'm so interested in the build I even went and got all the parts and ready I'm just dont know if I'm in going too get it right I even went too are local mentilsons they have all kinds of caps. Of any kind but didn't no if I had too use the photo ones they is thousands of things that you guys have been using in the photos is there from 2cents too 50cents! You are amazing I just need little help if you could too help a old man save alitte money
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on October 14, 2014, 06:46:49 PM
Hi modfo and welcome to the forum.
What do you need help with?
The caps for the flash camera welder should be rated at 330 volts and 340uF total capacitance. Although I only weld at 75v, the flash circuit is capable of putting out over 300 volts.

If you look at the original (1st) post, there are links to postings that will answer most of you questions as well as links to where you can buy caps and components.

Building the Spark-O-Matic is relatively easy if building the basic model. But building the Ohms/Volt version requires a bit more skill and knowledge.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: modfo on October 14, 2014, 07:06:49 PM
Thanks this now is my second post I think you guys have a three post limit before I can post pictures but I have runs of stuff from are local electronics store they have many caps but thanks for your reply it mean alot coming from you as I have went too alot of vapes shops around here and they act like you its a waste of time but too build coils right you need one I got mods and mod boxes but I would love too rebuild the nautilus mini coil I have done some of them but not with the leads and think it would be alot better vaper with the with it I did one with the Japanese cottons in the coil it a beast it came apart in three pieces the coil then the the filler but it took me three times too get it right I just was looking and the Kodak the only thing is the charger leads my Kodak looks little different than the one in the picture and by the way my sister in law work and  is the manger at Walgreens and she hooked me up with about 20 of the kodaks there is three wire from the flash . I am looking at and wondering where the charge bottom would go o got all the rest going just need that and I'm setup
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: modfo on October 14, 2014, 07:12:43 PM
Om working on the the cross over jumper wire its takes some skill too do that! Lol
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: wa9w00d on November 03, 2014, 04:22:25 PM
Hi guys, got some Kodak boards from electronic goldmine (nine of ten were functional), gonna make a spark-o-matic.  I started pulling unneeded parts, and there isn’t much left on the board now (a transformer, a transistor, a resistor, a diode, and of course the cap).  I think it charges faster now.  Got plenty left to do, but everybody likes pictures, and I need to test my ability to post them.  These will be loaded as attachments. not sure if they will show inline  :)

And to show I can edit, yes, they do show inline!   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: jonas44 on November 03, 2014, 05:22:36 PM
Nice. will be watching  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: wa9w00d on November 05, 2014, 03:59:01 PM
Power board and panel meter tested, now just got to mount in a box with a few switches and terminal posts.

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: waverunr2001 on November 07, 2014, 05:48:08 PM
Hi everyone!
          Been reading and watching all this info about these welders.  Sounds like exactly what I need. 
Could someone please put up a shopping list of everything needed to put one of these welders together.
The one with the LED display w/bleed down PB looks the best fit for me. I'm far from a electronic's wiz.
Shopping list, and schematic diagram would be awesome. Then we'll see if I have what it takes to actually
put it together and have it work right.?. I'll post pictures of progress on each step. And give you'al  the credit.
Thanks ahead of time for all the help!!!! I'm going to need it. Lol


Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: jeandbean on November 09, 2014, 09:57:12 AM
Hi everyone!
          Been reading and watching all this info about these welders.  Sounds like exactly what I need. 
Could someone please put up a shopping list of everything needed to put one of these welders together.
The one with the LED display w/bleed down PB looks the best fit for me. I'm far from a electronic's wiz.
Shopping list, and schematic diagram would be awesome. Then we'll see if I have what it takes to actually
put it together and have it work right.?. I'll post pictures of progress on each step. And give you'al  the credit.
Thanks ahead of time for all the help!!!! I'm going to need it. Lol

Hey there wave. Welcome to the forum.
If you look at the OP you can find what you are looking for
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: wa9w00d on November 09, 2014, 06:20:38 PM
Well, like JC said, it is done.  Life keeps interrupting my projects, but I digress.  Even made a weld with it. Not too bad, but I think I'll wear U.V. blocking sunglasses from now on. I can tell there was some burn there  cant_believe:. Anyway, here's some pics.
Wayne

 
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on November 09, 2014, 07:13:00 PM
Congrats wa9w00d. Good job.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: wa9w00d on November 09, 2014, 07:23:59 PM
Thanks, Breaktru.  Now on to bigger projects.  Finally got most of the parts for assembling a Hana style DNA 30. I won't call it a build, 'cause the only big challenge is going to be threading the case for a Varitube 510.  Hope I get it level  oh_my:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: magnaproxy on December 14, 2014, 09:19:19 PM
Hello Breaktru, I'm simply amazed how you turned a simple idea into a great project/product.
I thank you in advance  :thumbsup:

I read through all of the pages in this thread, and I was gathering parts on the Internet when I remembered I had a small Nikon mount-flash.
(http://i.imgur.com/b1tJPBE.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/y1pJbg5.jpg)

I've tried it out and it is more than a decent flash, considering it was purchased more than twenty years ago.
The capacitor in this thing is monstrous, and it's bigger than an AA battery.
(http://i.imgur.com/CPGvxRe.jpg)

I have a very elementary knowledge of electronics (enough to know that I can get shocked) so I didn't bother to touch any other parts of the module/board.
This is what it looks like inside.
(http://i.imgur.com/MJQ3lyg.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/zdeJXXF.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/7tSjQtZ.jpg)


I un-soldered the wires that were connected to the flash re-connected some 20 gauge copper wires to it.
It was originally connected here:
(http://i.imgur.com/7GO1dyB.jpg)

When I slide the switch to M, which is Manual flash, I can hear the flash charge.
And surprisingly, there was a spark when I touched the copper wires together. But it was almost blindingly bright and loud.
I was quite certain it would melt the kanthal and no resistant wires, but I gave it a try anyway.
When I overlapped the wires to "weld" them, it instantly evaporated with a flash...

I am assuming the capacitor is much too big to weld thin kanthal wires, and I'm again assuming that I could somehow replace the capacitors with a smaller volume.

Breaktru, could you possibly help me out with this? Or is it a better idea to leave thing thing alone?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: wa9w00d on December 14, 2014, 09:49:00 PM
I would say that you need a way to limit the charge.  That is a very "healthy" flash unit, prolly hitting 300 volts or more fast.  You need a meter to see the charge, and a momentary switch so that you can stop charging once it's at about 75 volts or so.
Wayne
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: magnaproxy on December 14, 2014, 10:08:25 PM
Thanks for your suggestion! I love that idea... in theory.

No offense though. I'm just not smart enough to place it in that board.  :no:

But yes, you're right. I think I'll have to find a way to bring down the power with a resistor... which means I'd have to find a way to measure the voltage when it's fully charged.
Acquiring a volt/ohm meter isn't difficult, but adding a resistor or resistors would take some trial and error I suppose.

But where would I add it to, is the million dollar question here.  :)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: waverunr2001 on December 14, 2014, 10:35:28 PM
Hay mag,
      Breaktru has been helping me quit a bit. I know enough about this just to make me dangerous.  But I think everyone would agree that if you could get to that switch you said you turned on and heard it charging. Take one of those wires and put it to momentary push button. And the other side of the switch put back to where you took it off and you're in business. The push button will allow you to stop charge where you want it.  But you're still going to want the DM to see what the charge is.
       Take that advise at your own risk though.  You could get a nasty shock!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: magnaproxy on December 14, 2014, 10:57:07 PM
Oh wow waver, your explanation made it so much easier to understand!

So, I add a momentary switch to one of the leads, plain and simple :)

But I'd love to add a voltage reader (panel meter), and I was wondering if it would work by following this schematic.
(http://i.imgur.com/ANFR5MR.png)

Would the panel meter work if I wired it just the way it's wired above?
According to the schematic, all I need to do is wire the positive (from the panel) to the positive of the battery, and connect the panel-negative to the switch-negative, and finally wire the white/yellow wire to the positive capacitor. But I think I'd have to add an additional 9V for the panel to light up and work properly.

Thank you so much for helping me out, by the way.  :thankyou:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: waverunr2001 on December 14, 2014, 11:04:13 PM
If you already have 9v power supply in the module your using, I think you've right. Sounds good to me.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: waverunr2001 on December 14, 2014, 11:40:03 PM
What is your power supply that it is running on now?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: magnaproxy on December 15, 2014, 05:21:09 AM
This thing eats four AA batteries.
It becomes quite hefty after I feed all four of them.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: wa9w00d on December 15, 2014, 04:18:10 PM
waverunr2001 is correct I believe.  You want to be able to apply and remove input power in a controlled fashion.  If its difficult to get to that switch, you could back up to the battery feed itself.  An easy way to test this theory would be to remove one (maybe two) of the batteries, set the switch to manual (at this point it shouldn't charge, unless the batteries are parallel instead of series), then momentarily install and remove that last battery. Charging should start and stop.

As to the panel meter, most of them require 3 or more volts to operate.  With 4 batteries, you could be configured for 1.5 (not so likely), 3, or 6 volts.  Three or six would be fine for the red and black (power) leads, then just connect the white (or yellow) lead to the positive of the charge cap.

Wayne
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: magnaproxy on December 15, 2014, 04:53:38 PM
You wonderful, wonderful people!!!

Thank you so much Wayne, and waver for helping me out.

It's quite a daunting task, especially for a newbie (to this forum and electronics), but you guys made it such a wonderful experience here, and I truly appreciate your time to answer my questions and inquiry.

I will most definitely post a follow-up once I order my parts  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: waverunr2001 on December 18, 2014, 11:00:38 AM
Hello World!
      I've read most of this thread more than once,  and I'm not only impressed,  but also thankful for everyone's trial, error,  and contribution to this build. I wish I could have been here when it was actually happening. Souds like you all had a good time. So even though I'm literally years late to the party, here is my build. Now I have say without Breaktru's help and ideas for this project none of us would be welding today. :applaude:
      This was not a easy build. Especially in such a small enclosure. With a lot of help and a ton of time and effort,  here it is!!! :thewave:

The 2.9 on the panel meter is  .925 silver and 32 ga kanthal. My first pre-welded wire. You can see the silica wick in the bottom picture by the alligator clips.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: waverunr2001 on December 18, 2014, 11:12:16 AM
You can't see the welds in the picture above because they are so close to the silica, but trust me they're there. Thanks again
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: wa9w00d on December 18, 2014, 11:16:04 AM
Congratulations, waverunr2001  ;cheers;

Sweet looking build.  Really like the carbon fiber look!

Have you done much welding with it yet?

And an FYI for all using one of these - all electric arcs generate UV, try to use UV blocking sunglasses.  There are some that aren't that dark.  cant_believe:

Wayne
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: waverunr2001 on December 18, 2014, 11:23:16 AM
Wow,  didn't know that! Thanks for the tip. The cabon fibor was a perc from a freebie sample request. I like it.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: wa9w00d on December 18, 2014, 11:40:18 AM
Yup. Actually, an electric arc generates a pulse across the electromagnetic spectrum.  The early wireless telegraphs used an arc to transmit the dots and dashes.  So also keep any ESD sensitive devices away from your welding area.  :)

Wayne
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on December 18, 2014, 01:48:37 PM
Hello World!
      I've read most of this thread more than once,  and I'm not only impressed,  but also thankful for everyone's trial, error,  and contribution to this build. I wish I could have been here when it was actually happening. Souds like you all had a good time. So even though I'm literally years late to the party, here is my build. Now I have say without Breaktru's help and ideas for this project none of us would be welding today.
      This was not a easy build. Especially in such a small enclosure. With a lot of help and a ton of time and effort,  here it is!!!

Excellent  :rockin smiley:
Looks really good with the carbon fiber too!

I like that you utilized the ohm meter circuitry from my schematic as well  :applaude:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Squance on December 18, 2014, 04:37:37 PM
Very nice in deed waverunr2001. Good job man.
What is that reading of 2.9 on the meter?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: waverunr2001 on December 19, 2014, 01:52:27 AM
Hi All,
       The meter is reading the nr-r-nr welded coil that's in the alligator clips. 2.9 Ohm. See the piece of silica?  You just can't make out the other clip to well.  Its the first wire I welded.  Thanks everyone for the compliments.  It was tough,  but well worth it. Doh:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: ILoveToBuild on January 07, 2015, 04:20:51 AM
First off, Thank You, Breaktru, for sharing this info and all your diligent work here.  :beer-toast:  You Rock!!!  :rockin smiley:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: ILoveToBuild on January 07, 2015, 04:25:11 AM
I bought a Fuji with a 14 foot flash for $9.88 at Wal-Mart so I could get started.  Then I saw this listed here today...

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/fsh-12/flash-assembly/1.html
Flash Assembly for $1.00!   :facepalm:  But I have it now and can get started.   I'm really looking forward to this project.

Thanks again.  ;bow;


If you can not get used flash cameras, Electronic Goldmine has them on sale. 10 for $4.00
SALE! Super Strobe Board (Package of 10) (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610B)

This has gone up to $14.90 now.  :Thinking:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: ILoveToBuild on January 08, 2015, 09:53:00 PM
I got started with my Fuji Flash Board last night.  Just soldered on the wires like the basic version in the beginning, and tacked on a Charge Push Button Switch.  I had some small alligator clips from Radio Shack that I'm using for the Capacitor's Voltage Out  Leads.  Radio Shack Part Number 270-0380.  It's a pack of 12.  The springs are really quite strong!  I have some covers for them.

(http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=733.0;attach=1513;image)
This is Breaktru's picture, used to show the basic wiring I've done so far.

Mine is not in a box yet, but still in prototype form.  I'm starting with the extreme basic design that was in the schematic in Post #13.  I probably won't add the Power On LED, though I see where it could be a nice reminder, so maybe come Box time.

(http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=733.0;attach=1509;image)

I'm using a 10K Ohm for discharging in my prototype because I had one.  I'll get the 15K Ohm later.  Haven't added the extra Caps yet for a 360µF total, as I'm just checking that it will weld as the original design did, by using higher Voltages.  I have an Analog Meter that doesn't drop the Voltage too bad.  Not nearly as bad as my Harbor Freight El Cheapo Digital DMM.  Since the Butt Weld method has been discovered to work well at ~75V, I may do OK with that method.  I'll try some different Voltages and see.  But I will definitely add the 360µF total before I'm finished.  I have a strong feeling that I'll need the extra capacitance.

I intend to weld 34g or 32g NR to 30g and 29g Kanthal for use in a Vision Eternity, so I can make coils for a friend.  I have a Vision Eternity that was given to me, and the factory coils are very Hot because they are made with 36g or 34g at 2.0 Ohms.  But the mounting posts are made for that small wire, and a 32g coil is very hard to get on, and it's still kinda Hot.  They also use 4 tiny strands of Silica, and I want to try Cotton in it, plus be able crank up the Volts/Watts beyond what the factory coils can take without giving a burnt taste.  Hence, my need for the Spark-O-Matic.  This is why I joined the forum.

I'll add things to my Spark-O-Matic as I go.  Ultimately, I want to include the Velleman PMLCDL Panel Meter for both Volts and Ohms checking, and put in a 510 on the top of my Box for an RBA/RDA Building Platform with Ohms testing.  I have some other ideas that I'm going to play with, too, but only in the way that 1.5V and 9V are supplied.  Everything else will be the same as Breaktru's design in the schematic in Post #414.  More on this later, if/when I get it worked out.

Thanks again, Breaktru!!!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: ILoveToBuild on January 09, 2015, 02:21:39 AM
Hello again,

I have a comment/question relating to the Velleman PMLCDL Panel Meter.

As you have it configured with P1 shorted to P0, the decimal place is XXX.X for both Volts and Ohms.  But let's say someone (like me) wanted greater accuracy for the Ohms scale to build a Sub-Ohm coil.  I currently build a dual coil in my RDA at 0.75 Ohms.  I'm going to mount a 510 in my Box, and I think it would be nice to see the Scale change to X.XXX for Ohms, so I could see 0.75X more precisely.

I'm thinking that replacing the Volt/Ohm 3PDT Switch used now with a 4PDT would do it.  With the extra Pole, I/we could remove (or not use) the solder short at P1 to P0, and let the Switch's Volts position short P1 to P0, and the Ohms position short P3 to P0, or whichever one shorted to P0 would work for an X.XXX Scale.  It appears that it would be P3, because of the 200mV Scale.  P3 for 200V seems to be a typo, and should read P1, as P1 worked for you.  Since no one really ever builds a setup at more than 4 Ohms, this Scale should be fine for any Vaper.  And it would be good for up to 9.999 Ohms for anyone who wanted/needed it.

Here's a 4 Pole On-On-On (3 position slide switch) at All Electronics for $1.00...
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/ssw-67/4-pole-slide-switch-on-on-on/1.html
4A @ 125 VAC, 1.5A @ 250 VAC.

Tie the middle two together in each On-On-On Row (the center two of each row of four, with respect to the slider) to make them Common, and slide the action from end to end, skipping the center stop.  One end is Volts, the other is Ohms, with the center position unused.

This same switch could be used as the Battery Off/On, with an extra pole at the Off end to be used to close the 15K Discharge Circuit when the Spark-O-Matic is Off.  :yes"

I didn't see a 4PDT at All Electronics.  I didn't see a 3PST or a 3PDT there, either.  The switches you used weren't in your Shopping List, Post #324.  Maybe I missed them somewhere else.  But I think this one would be fine.  You can correct me if I'm wrong (please).

So that was the comment.  Here's the question.  Do you know if P3 should be used for this?  I found where you talked about P3 to P0 not working for you, so you used P1 to P0, but I'm thinking you were going for an XXX.X Scale.

Sorry this was so long.  Thanks in advance.  :)

PS:  I guess we still use the 200 Ohm Pot (or 500 as mentioned) to set the LM317LZ for 100mA at ADJ to the Resistance Under Load.  Is this correct?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 09, 2015, 04:20:08 PM
The best we can do with this meter is read tenths. I have previously wired in a switch with P3 to P0 for ohms reading and what happens is an ohm reading like 01.5 will show as .015 You don't actually see the hundredths number. It just moves the decimal point.

I prefer the 200 ohm pot over the 500 ohm. It's better for a finer adjustment.

You won't see any difference with a 15K over the 10K for the discharge.

You won't be able to illuminate an LED as an On/Off indicator with a 1.5V AA battery. On my original Spark-O-Matic, I built a Joule Thief circuit as shown HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6434.html#msg6434)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: ILoveToBuild on January 09, 2015, 09:50:58 PM
The best we can do with this meter is read tenths. I have previously wired in a switch with P3 to P0 for ohms reading and what happens is an ohm reading like 01.5 will show as .015 You don't actually see the hundredths number. It just moves the decimal point.

I prefer the 200 ohm pot over the 500 ohm. It's better for a finer adjustment.

You won't see any difference with a 15K over the 10K for the discharge.

You won't be able to illuminate an LED as an On/Off indicator with a 1.5V AA battery. On my original Spark-O-Matic, I built a Joule Thief circuit as shown HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6434.html#msg6434)

Thanks for this.  I have seen some Joule Thief videos on YouTube, so I'm familiar with the concept.  Amazing how that works!  The videos came up on the side when I was looking at some wire weld designs, before I found you here.

I only said I'd get a 500 Ohm Pot because I'd thought about getting everything from All Electronics, but since the Panel Meter comes from JameCo, I can probably get a 200 Ohm Multi-Turn Pot from there (hopefully 10 turns).  I totally understand your point here!

NOPE! None at JameCo.  Just looked.  If you don't mind, do you remember where you got yours?

For the Ohmmeter to show 2 or 3 decimal places (XX.XX or X.XXX) the way I'd like, I guess the Panel Meter would need a higher Voltage from the LM317LZ, or likely even something else.  Maybe I'll contact Velleman about this.  If I find the info needed, I'll share it here.

Using an LED to indicate that Power is On would come after I work out the alternate way that 1.5V and both 9V are supplied, if I can.   :D  That'll be a project in itself, considering the Ground Isolation that is required for all 3 Power Sources.

Thanks again!   :)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: ILoveToBuild on January 20, 2015, 07:06:52 PM
The best we can do with this meter is read tenths. I have previously wired in a switch with P3 to P0 for ohms reading and what happens is an ohm reading like 01.5 will show as .015 You don't actually see the hundredths number. It just moves the decimal point.

Breaktru,

Have you tried this for the Ohms Scale?

P2 to P0
RB = 9.9M Ohms (instead of 9.99M Ohms)
RA = 100K Ohms (as you have RA now)

Since the LM317LZ for the Meter is Powered with 9V and is Outputting somewhere in the 20V Range of the Meter (rather than 200mV or 200/500V), I'm thinking the 20V Scale may work better for reading Ohms, and give a reading better than only Tenths, like 1.5x or even 1.5xx for a 1.5 Ohm resistance.

I wrote to Velleman about the PMLCDL, asking how to set the Scales, and got no reply. So I joined the Support Forum to ask the same question, and they said "Sorry, this is only for Velleman projects." I was like, How is this not a Velleman project? I'm using your Panel Meter! But the thread had been closed and there was no way to ask that person a follow up question.

So I looked at the "Manual" again and thought maybe the 20V Scale would work better than whatever Scale it is with P1 shorted to P0. Of course, implementing this would involve more complicated Switching between Volts and Ohms, but I'm curious to know if this Meter Configuration would work. I haven't purchased the Meter for myself yet, so that's why I'm asking you.

BTW, my Alternate Powering Scheme can be done with Murata (or other vendor's) DC-DC Isolated Converters...


(http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y435/100PercentVG/WORKSTATION/Pictures/FujiFlashWelder05MuratecDC-DCConterters.jpg)


These will allow for Input Power from a single 12V Source or three LiMn Batteries in Series. I think three 14500s would do it, as the total the 3 Converters will draw is only 785mA. I selected the 5V 600mA Converter because the LM317 for making 1.5V to the Flash can need up to 500mA. These also have 3kV and 5.2kV Isolation. Others have 1kV Isolation and may be fine to use.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 21, 2015, 09:25:25 AM
Sounds like Velleman does not want to answer your question by closing (locking) your topic question.

Anyway, I can't get this meter to display more than tenths of a volt in the proper volt range scale.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: ILoveToBuild on January 21, 2015, 02:38:46 PM
Sounds like Velleman does not want to answer your question by closing (locking) your topic question.

Anyway, I can't get this meter to display more than tenths of a volt in the proper volt range scale.

I was quite disappointed with Velleman!

So you have tried it with different configurations for reading Ohms. That's too bad.  :(
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Amiga on April 15, 2015, 10:11:48 AM
Breaktru / Everyone,

I have been following this thread with interest and landed up registering (first post) as i have a old wotan b12 flash stripped it down to find a small simple board with a hitachi 180mfd330wv cap (180uf 330v).

I now have my connectors, box, switches etc to start building this  :) 

I have ordered 34 hitachi 180uf 330v caps for $22  (thinking  2 in parallel giving 360uf), and am due to pick up a load of used single use camera`s with flash from our local asda (walmart) end of the week.

I`ve been toying over the voltmeter to control the sparky and was looking for a high impededance one with back light but running on low voltage but capable of reading up to 400v, it took a while but i eventually found one not bad price either $7

(http://i.imgur.com/krGPnMq.jpg)
      
XIELI  XL34LCDV-4 3 3/4 DC power supply-Measuring DC LCD digital voltmeter.

Model: XL34LCDV-4
Full range:  +/- 0~399.9V
Resolution: 100mV
Accuracy: +/- 0.3% + 2 digit
Input impedance: 10MOhm
Max input voltage: +/- 500V
Power source: DC5V 30ma
Sample frequency: 400ms
Back lighting control by PIN (Green Backlighting)
Auto Zero
Polarity: Automatic Sensing
Data Hold function
Over Range: Display 4 or -4
Dimension: W79mm x H42.5mm x D25.5mm
ApertureSize: w76mm x h39mm


PIN 1                                      DC5V+  Power supply
PIN2                                       DC5V-  Power supply
PIN 3                                      Backlighting Control by short PIN 1 & PIN3
PIN 4                                      Blank
PIN 5                                      Blank
PIN 6                                      Data Holding [Short PIN6 & PIN1]
   *The data hold control cable must be less than 30cm.
PIN 7                                      DC + voltage signal input
PIN 8                                     DC - voltage signal input


I`m hoping this display will be ok for the job I got it here http://www.aliexpress.com/item/display-3999-lcd-voltmeter-green-LCD/344393792.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/display-3999-lcd-voltmeter-green-LCD/344393792.html) well two of them actually.

I`m also looking to  try and put in a wire holding clamp with weld button.

It`ll all work or it`ll go horribly wrong lol
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on April 15, 2015, 02:02:00 PM
Hi Amiga and welcome to the forum. Thanks for posting.

Great to hear that you are planning to build a Spark-O-Matic.
Looks like a nice capable meter.
Have you given any thought into supplying the 5V needed for the meter power source?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Amiga on April 15, 2015, 03:25:30 PM

Have you given any thought into supplying the 5V needed for the meter power source?

my idea was to use a second 1.5v battery with DC-DC Boost Converter Step Up Module 1-5V to 5V 500mA Power Module as its tiny.

I also have a dual channel wii controller charge station board spare so was thinking that could be connected to the two AA cell sockets to provide recharging of the AA`s (probably be using 2100mah nimh)
and then I could drill holes for the charge leds and 5v charge port.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Brian9523 on April 15, 2015, 06:34:51 PM
Nice Amiga. I hope you post something when you are done  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: waverunr2001 on April 17, 2015, 11:19:55 AM
Yes, I would like to see that as well. I do like the  panel meter. 5V? Wouldn't  the 9V still work, or is that to much for that meter?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: wa9w00d on April 17, 2015, 03:50:37 PM
my idea was to use a second 1.5v battery with DC-DC Boost Converter Step Up Module 1-5V to 5V 500mA Power Module as its tiny.

I also have a dual channel wii controller charge station board spare so was thinking that could be connected to the two AA cell sockets to provide recharging of the AA`s (probably be using 2100mah nimh)
and then I could drill holes for the charge leds and 5v charge port.

If you want to keep it simple, and if that 30 mA drain is right, you could just put a 130 ohm resistor in series with a 9 volt battery.  Not the most efficient, but dead simple and cheap.

Wayne
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 23, 2015, 02:01:06 PM
Hi, Breaktru, thanks for a graet in depth tutorial/life essay lol we thank you for it.

I have a question, like everyone else, mine is regarding the capacitors and how to find out what the voltage and what uf they are when they aren't written on the side. I went to my local Boots and got 2 carrier bags full of them and thought this would be a walk in the park but when i opened them all up almost all of the capacitors had no real markings on. some had the usual 330v 80uF but others just have things like '4(2) ND' is there anyway i can find out what these are? The only ones that had anything on them were NOT the Fuji ones, but a couple of AA ones.

Here are a few of the things what are written on the side if anyone has got a clue, i have googled it but i can't find anything...

N483T
4(2) 6D
2(2) Nc
T0510 PET
4(2) 3E
678
4(2) NN

There are more but mostly the same just with different numbers but in the same format as what i have given.


Please help, or do i just nee to throw them away?

Or is there a way to test them? I think it is pretty obvious that they are 330v but what uF are they?

If nobody knows then in the bin they go :(

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 23, 2015, 02:41:22 PM
Yes they all should be 330v.
Unfortunately the markings on some caps are the camera manufactures reference numbers and not the capacitor manufactures. So looking them up is useless.
What I did was compare physical size of a known cap uF to one that did not have a uF value.

Of course measuring the uF value with a DMM that has capacitance ranges would be best. I couldn't because my DMM only goes up to 20uF in scale.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 23, 2015, 03:51:03 PM
Yes they all should be 330v.
Unfortunately the markings on some caps are the camera manufactures reference numbers and not the capacitor manufactures. So looking them up is useless.
What I did was compare physical size of a known cap uF to one that did not have a uF value.

Of course measuring the uF value with a DMM that has capacitance ranges would be best. I couldn't because my DMM only goes up to 20uF in scale.

Mate, thanks so much for the quick reply! You are awesome!

Well i have got 6 that are marked up from unknown disposable manufacturer cameras, but all the 'Known' brands have all got ones tha aren't marked in them, not one lol

I don't know if that is a UK thing or what but it is tootally crappy for us isn't it! lol

What i will do is wire 4 of the 80uF together and try that and also just wire 3 of the ones i got out of the fuji cams together too, just to see how they do. The 80uF's are bigger too (They are all AA ones not AAA, which might have somethingwith why they are labelled...?)  to do it will take up more space in whatever box i decide to use in the end, plus i have to put an extra one in. But who cares right? this is what experimenting is about!!

Also while you are answering questions, I want to zap thicker wire like 26awg or maybe even 24awg, will this do it or willl i need to add extra caps etc? I am not too bothered if i can't as i can parallell build a coil but i want to rebuild some atlantis coils and some zephyrus coils and need the extra thickness. Any input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks again, and again!

 ;cheers;
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 23, 2015, 04:42:40 PM
Yeah four 80uF is good and trying the three w/ the existing will probably work as well.

For thicker gauge wire you will have to go up a bit with the voltage setting using the same cap values. Experiment on voltage until you get it right.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 23, 2015, 06:39:24 PM
Yeah four 80uF is good and trying the three w/ the existing will probably work as well.

For thicker gauge wire you will have to go up a bit with the voltage setting using the same cap values. Experiment on voltage until you get it right.

Once again, thank you!

You have helped alleviate some prebuild jitters really bad ones too lol!

Time to choose which two boards i will want to be using and strip some capps and flashes off! lol

I have already got a little 3-digit digital voltmeter, but it is made for li-on batteries, it was going to be used for a different build but decided not to use it, anyway it only has 2 leads and only goes to 30volts, can i still use it usng the method you describe where it shows 7.5 volts instead of 75, or should i just wait for the 100volt one i have got on it's way (again one that was for something else but is now going to be used to do something a lot better lol), the only thing is that the 100volt one uses a common ground as it has 3 leads and needs at least 3.5volts to operate, well they both need 3.5 to 30 volts to operate so will that make the voltage drop too?

Which would you use if any?

Or should i get a completey different one?

If you used a different one, which would you recommend?

And so, so sorry for all the questions!

 ;bow;  ;bow; ;bow;


Thanks!

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 23, 2015, 08:02:08 PM
I would suggest to wire up and don't put it in a box just yet. This way you can determine how bad the meter bleeds down the voltage.
Start w/ your 30V 2-wire meter w/ the resistor to lower the voltage reading. See this post about adding the resistor (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6254.html#msg6254)

Even w/ the better meter I used, I get some bleed down but it's not something terrible.
The meter I choose has an Input Impedance of 100M ohm. A meter w/ 10M ohm or more input impedance is recommended.

The meter I used was: http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2131135&catalogId=10001&CID=MERCH
The optional resistor set will also be needed for the Velleman.
It could be challenging for some to figure out the wiring scheme on the Velleman panel meter.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 24, 2015, 06:14:21 AM
I would suggest to wire up and don't put it in a box just yet. This way you can determine how bad the meter bleeds down the voltage.
Start w/ your 30V 2-wire meter w/ the resistor to lower the voltage reading. See this post about adding the resistor (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6254.html#msg6254)

Even w/ the better meter I used, I get some bleed down but it's not something terrible.
The meter I choose has an Input Impedance of 100M ohm. A meter w/ 10M ohm or more input impedance is recommended.

The meter I used was: http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2131135&catalogId=10001&CID=MERCH
The optional resistor set will also be needed for the Velleman.
It could be challenging for some to figure out the wiring scheme on the Velleman panel meter.

Thanks again for the advice, really hope i am not bugging you!

I will try the way you said, get a working unit and then try the different led volt meters on it.

I also saw this one,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blue-LED-Panel-Meter-4-Wires-3-1-2-Digital-Voltmeter-Display-DC0-500V-/121724183896?hash=item1c5753a558 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blue-LED-Panel-Meter-4-Wires-3-1-2-Digital-Voltmeter-Display-DC0-500V-/121724183896?hash=item1c5753a558)

 it looks a bit like yours but slightly different. It is 0-500v and has 4 wire input, 2 for the power to run it and 2 for the reader. With it being able to go to 500v would make it a bit easier as i wouldn't need to use a resistor would i? Plus because it has 4 leads does that mean that there will be little or no voltage drop off as it is not trying to take any power from the item it is reading to make it work like the 2 wire ones do, they take power to light up the numbers from whatever they are reading, hence the voltage drop?


I knoow it sounds as though i am hung up on the reader but as we need the exact voltages to make the welds better, this is the only point i need help with lol I charged up a capacitor and used my little crappy DMM and the voltage dropped like a stone. That's why i want to go the all in one route.

Thanks for your patience with me and for answering all my pesky questions, especially if these have been asked before, i did read through the whole thread but couldn't see anything definitive about these questions i asked (or i wouldn't be asking them i suppose lol).

Thanks very much, for the answers to my questions and not treating me like an idiot like some other forums would do... we all know one or 2 like that now don't we!

 ;bow;
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MonkeyTokes on August 24, 2015, 09:11:44 AM
Call your local CVS or other film developing place/pharmacy and ask them to set aside the old disposables. You could even offer them $10 or so if its a mom and pop and for something they'll throw away they'll gladly give you.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 24, 2015, 01:35:42 PM
Call your local CVS or other film developing place/pharmacy and ask them to set aside the old disposables. You could even offer them $10 or so if its a mom and pop and for something they'll throw away they'll gladly give you.

I got all of mine from Boots chemist in the photo part in the shop, i went in 2 days in a row and got a carrier bag filled both days. Then i went to one of th little places and they flat out refused me saying they recycle them don't know if that was true and they get paid to recycle them or not but if they did then i would of thought boots would too. Yet they let me have loads, i suppose it is just whoever is working there at the time...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 24, 2015, 04:23:36 PM
No problem asking beefy. That's what the forum is all about. Helping others. There are knowledgeable members here that may also chime in.

If you will be building the ohm reader also, an independent ground would be necessary. Such as the meter you linked to has. It won't help with battery bleed down. The 10M ohm or higher input impedance rating is important. Lower than that will bleed down quicker. I don't see a "input impedance" spec for the meter you show.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 28, 2015, 07:57:59 AM
No problem asking beefy. That's what the forum is all about. Helping others. There are knowledgeable members here that may also chime in.

If you will be building the ohm reader also, an independent ground would be necessary. Such as the meter you linked to has. It won't help with battery bleed down. The 10M ohm or higher input impedance rating is important. Lower than that will bleed down quicker. I don't see a "input impedance" spec for the meter you show.

I don't want to do the ohm meter, i just want to have the voltage meter panel on it like your earlier ones, the ohmmeter is for a bit further down the road.

That being said, i have found this page for buying panel meters with greater than 100mohm impedence and it has the fine tune resistors that you need to use with it and also a schematic at the bottom, for people in the uk like me. I looked everywhere before coming across this page lol but i think it might be helpful for anyone using a panel meter to measure voltage.

Can you please have a look and let me know if i am on the right track with these cause if i am then i will buy one of the panel meters and a set of the resistors straight away!

Thanks again!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 28, 2015, 08:02:57 AM
Forgot to post the page link lol:

https://www.esr.co.uk/electronics/test-panel.htm (https://www.esr.co.uk/electronics/test-panel.htm)

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 28, 2015, 08:07:31 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/oIAjDcu.png)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 28, 2015, 08:15:28 AM
Yes that is the same brand meter I used. I used the PMLCDL model
You will need to use a separate 9V battery to power the meter.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 28, 2015, 08:25:57 AM
Excellent, to start with all i could find was ones from america which would of cost loads in imort duties and postage lol

Which resistors did you use with your panel for the voltage output or are they on one of the schematics on here?

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 28, 2015, 09:08:17 AM
A 9.99M and a 10K resistor as shown HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg9176.html#msg9176)

Also see attached below (omit the ohm reading portion) -
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 28, 2015, 11:51:54 AM
A 9.99M and a 10K resistor as shown HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg9176.html#msg9176)

Also see attached below (omit the ohm reading portion) -

You're a star!

I was thinking about the charging light and how it gets brighter the more charge goes into the capacitors to let you know when the flash was ready and wondered if there was an easier way to measure the voltage through that... but then i realised that i don't know squat compared to you guys and if that had been an option then you would of thought about it lol

Thanks for the quick replies and the great information. Much appreciated as always!

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MildBill on August 30, 2015, 03:33:39 PM
Just a quick "Hello!" and a (hopefully) quick question from a new member...

Hello!  :wave: (  :laughing2: )

I see that in the last couple of years the majority of welders seem to be in the lower voltage category (30 - 42 range), with some fairly reliable success even with silver wires at around 32 volts. I'm guessing that higher capacity capacitors (in the range of 1900 to 2200 microfarads ?) are being used. Anyone have any actual factual information on any of these lower voltage devices, and what capacitances they seem to be using?

MildBill


(http://www.ecigalternative.com/quit-counter/quit-smoking-banner.php?key=39399)
 (http://www.ecigalternative.com/quit-counter/quit-smoking-banner.php)
 
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 30, 2015, 06:48:01 PM
I believe you are referring to the LM board welders:

http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,727.0.html (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,727.0.html)

http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,952.0.html (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,952.0.html)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MildBill on August 31, 2015, 10:52:51 AM
I believe you are referring to the LM board welders:

Well, not necessarily the LM board, but thanks, I'll give these a look.

MildBill

P.S. I do like better the notion that, once I find my 'sweet spot', I can more or less set it and forget it and churn out a small batch of wires at a time.

MB
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 31, 2015, 03:36:24 PM
I found these caps today in one of my old computer power supply, i was stripping one down to use the case for this project.. (I am not a vain man and don't caree what it looks like as long as it works lol)

(http://i.imgur.com/ZF6JPUu.jpg)

the one on the top is the one i found, 330uf @200V, underneath is the fuji board.

Would it be ok to use this cap on it's own?

I know it would take longer to charge but could i run 2 AA batteries in parallel to help with the charging?


One more thing for Breakthru, in the schematic you have put up with the panel reader, on the right hand side you say don't not remove the RA resistor that is in situ, but remove the one in RB, so i take it that i solder the new resistor (10k) over the top of the little resistor in RA, then remove the resiistor in RB and solder in the 9.99Mohm resistor into there instead, remember i am only going for the voltage meter, not the ammeter yet. That will give me the 200v reader that i want?

Thanks In Advance!

 ;cheers; ;cheers;
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on August 31, 2015, 04:48:50 PM
beefy, I don't know if you intended to place a picture in your post or not but I don't see it.

330uF is fine as long as you keep your output voltage well below 200V. Otherwise it will definitely POP. Use w/ caution. The camera flash caps are rated at 330V. You should be safe if you don't accidentally overcharge the cap.
There is no need for parallel batts but it will extend the life of usage.

Leave the existing smd resistor on RA and solder across it w/ a 10K ohm resistor. The resistor should be a low tolerance rating of 1%, preferably lower.  And yes it will be the 200V setting.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on August 31, 2015, 04:58:27 PM
There you go i put the picture in, god knows what i linked to...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MildBill on September 01, 2015, 04:07:43 PM
I'm still doing some research, but it occurs to me that the switches in the original project that started this may have been changing out different Zener diode voltage regulator circuits, which should be fairly simple to add to this version, thus negating the need for a voltage meter permanently installed. It would also allow, once the specific voltages were determined for the various sizes of wire, that 'set and forget' notion I seem to have. You could easily have 5 different voltage levels, (one for each switch, plus one 'maximum' voltage for the whole thing) with the type of switch in that original project.

Select your voltage, press the charge button, wait a few few seconds for the voltage to stabilize, and ZAP!

Just a passing thought as I did my research.

MildBill
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on September 02, 2015, 04:14:55 PM
I'm still doing some research, but it occurs to me that the switches in the original project that started this may have been changing out different Zener diode voltage regulator circuits, which should be fairly simple to add to this version, thus negating the need for a voltage meter permanently installed. It would also allow, once the specific voltages were determined for the various sizes of wire, that 'set and forget' notion I seem to have. You could easily have 5 different voltage levels, (one for each switch, plus one 'maximum' voltage for the whole thing) with the type of switch in that original project.

Select your voltage, press the charge button, wait a few few seconds for the voltage to stabilize, and ZAP!

Just a passing thought as I did my research.

MildBill

I was wondering about the charging LED. It gets brighter as the voltage goes up so could you mount a set of different coloured LEDS and add resistors or something so that they light up when you reach a certain voltage?

There must be loads of ways to do this and i think we have only just scratched the surface.

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on September 03, 2015, 01:24:11 PM
I'm still doing some research, but it occurs to me that the switches in the original project that started this may have been changing out different Zener diode voltage regulator circuits, which should be fairly simple to add to this version, thus negating the need for a voltage meter permanently installed. It would also allow, once the specific voltages were determined for the various sizes of wire, that 'set and forget' notion I seem to have. You could easily have 5 different voltage levels, (one for each switch, plus one 'maximum' voltage for the whole thing) with the type of switch in that original project.

Select your voltage, press the charge button, wait a few few seconds for the voltage to stabilize, and ZAP!

Just a passing thought as I did my research.

MildBill

I really like your idea, we need someone to let us know what the voltages are for the different size wires and thats it we will be well away, plus we also need someone who can draw diagrams lol just had a look, they have 75watt zener diodes and everything up to 200 volts so we should be ok with this.

I am stilll making the one with the voltmeter panel, I am making it in an old PC power supply box, once it is done i will put it in a small plastic box and tidy it up. But the more i think about it i think your idea is great, just hold the button down for a while then zap, you shouldn't get any voltage drop either as you aren't trying to measure it.

Nice idea, thanks for sharing!!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MildBill on September 03, 2015, 06:26:06 PM
I really like your idea, we need someone to let us know what the voltages are for the different size wires and thats it we will be well away, plus we also need someone who can draw diagrams lol just had a look, they have 75watt zener diodes and everything up to 200 volts so we should be ok with this.

Not sure it will be quite that easy, as the voltage will change with the specific value for the capacitor(s) used, but it would be a good place to start at least. Do note that some of those zener diodes can be quite pricey, so bringing the voltage down a bit to go with more capacitance may be part of the overall plan. I am also curious, for anyone out there who has perhaps tried more than one type, if the lower voltage/higher capacitance versus higher voltage/lower capacitance makes a difference in the weld quality.

Quote
I am stilll making the one with the voltmeter panel, I am making it in an old PC power supply box, once it is done i will put it in a small plastic box and tidy it up. But the more i think about it i think your idea is great, just hold the button down for a while then zap, you shouldn't get any voltage drop either as you aren't trying to measure it.

Hope it works out for you, do please keep us posted.

Quote
Nice idea, thanks for sharing!!

No probem, as I say, I'm still doing my research on the idea.

MildBill
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on September 04, 2015, 08:37:15 AM
Well i have just rang up the supplier for the panel meter and the precision resistors as i didn't recieve an email off them, i only ordered them on the 1st and they should be with me by tomorrow or monday! I will let you all know how much they charged me in the end as like i said the haven't sent me an invoice, plus i ordered 2 packs of resistors just in case i mess one up and they only had one in stock, but they are getting more in monday so they have sent it out in 2 packages which i think is awesome!

All the rest of the parts should arrive shortly and i can get to work making this beauty!

I am starting off with it in an old emptied out PC powers supply and when i get it all working i will move it all to a nice plastic box :)

*edit - the Velleman panel meter and the one pack of resistors arrived today just as i was writing this. The price is £11.75 for the panel meter and 2 packs of the resistors from here : https://www.esr.co.uk/electronics/test-panel.htm (https://www.esr.co.uk/electronics/test-panel.htm)

It will be about a pound cheaper if you only get one pack of resistors but i am still prcticing with my soldering lol

At the end of all this i think it will have cost me about 25 - 30 quid, but i will have the Pleasure of making it myself and it won't be one of the ones where you have to hold the button down for an undisclosed amount of time and hope that if works for £40

Big Kudos to Breaktru and his team for helping out the newbies and doing such great work!

Thanks from us all!


Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on September 05, 2015, 09:48:22 AM
This might sound like a really dumb question, but i take it that i disconnect the flash right?

Yes, take the piss if you want but nowhere doesw it say to disconnect the flash...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on September 05, 2015, 10:19:04 AM
Yes beefy. Cut out the flash
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on September 05, 2015, 10:23:25 AM
Yes beefy. Cut out the flash

Sound, i know it sounded stupid but i just thought i would ask. Nearly got everything to make it now, should have everything by next week! Can't wait lol
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on September 12, 2015, 07:32:01 AM
And here comes another dumb question...

I have been trying to read the resistors resistances with no luck, i have even tried using an online calculator but they don't seem to correspond to the colours on the resistors no matter which way round i do it, some do, others don't. can you please just tell me which colours you used for the panel meter please?J ust for the voltage, i don't care about the resistance meter at the moment.

I calculated the 15k resistors for the bleed button easily and have tried different ones i have got on other things i have stripped down, but i just can't seem to figure out these blue bloody precicion ones!!! AAAArgh!!!

As always your help with my stupidity will be very grateful!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on September 12, 2015, 09:14:32 AM
Attached below is a color code chart for 4, 5 or 6 band resistors.
A 10K would be: Brown, Black, Black, Red and the Green band would signify 0.5% tolerence
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on September 12, 2015, 10:29:08 AM
Thanks mate,

It's just bit hard to make out some of the colours on these bloody things, i think i might be going colour blind lol

Thanks greatly!

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MildBill on September 12, 2015, 04:14:48 PM

It's just bit hard to make out some of the colours on these bloody things, i think i might be going colour blind lol


Yeah, that's the real problem in many cases, deciding on what color the band(s) really is, especially on older resistors I've 'recovered' out of some other project/board.

MildBill
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: waverunr2001 on September 17, 2015, 09:03:07 PM
Hi All,
     You know with all the devices out today reading two digits past the decimal point,  even cheap ohm readers. You'd think we could find a way to do it too. Has anyone figured out how to get two digits past the decimal point yet? I even saw a ohm reader that goes three digits past!  I'd really like to add that to my welder. The meters on them dont look anything special either.  Any suggestions? :help:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: MildBill on September 17, 2015, 09:25:30 PM
I suppose we could find the ohm meter module that they all seem to use... I have seen one on a UK vape shop site, but I can't seem to find it at the moment, and I saw one once on a site with electronic modules, but again, have been unable to find it again. The one I remember was apparently made by MMT, a Chinese outfit, as that was the label across the board.
The vast majority of cheap readers out there seem to use this module, glued or potted into a 3 'AA' cell battery box, thus taking up one of the battery slots along with the 510 connectors, including the (original model) ones 'Made proudly in the USA'!
What I keep hoping to find, somewhere, is the board used in the Coil Master 521 Tab, but I'm not holding my breath.
But, to be honest, I have pretty much decided, for myself at least, that an ohm meter in the same box as my welder is overkill. I'd rather have my ohm meter separate. I'll probably end up buying that Coil Master build deck.

MildBill

EDIT: Here's the board in question on AliBaba, maybe someone would do a group buy??  http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/MMT-Group-original-developed-pcb-digital_60159889494.html

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on September 17, 2015, 09:43:49 PM
I gave up trying to get it to read hundredths or thousandths. This is what happened when I tried w/ the PMCDL meter: SEE THIS POST (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg18639.html#msg18639)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on January 22, 2016, 07:32:17 PM
 raged: I just spent an extremely long informative post to respond to "ILoveToBuild", but I took too long, and it logged me out, and I work Midnights so no chance to redo. :wallbash:  fainting:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 22, 2016, 07:47:29 PM
Wow, sorry about that Duckster. Didn't even know there was a time limit.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on January 22, 2016, 08:24:58 PM
Deleted by Duckster accidental duplicate. oh_my:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on January 22, 2016, 08:26:25 PM
To " ILoveToBuild" the Reader Digest Condensed version to my lost post is.
  I believe that the circuit using the LM317 isn't a voltage idea,  but a Constant Current Source, standard way to measure resistance, is to apply a known current through a unknown resistance, and measure the Voltage Drop to represent the resistance. If you provide a 100ma signal, and using the 200mv scale, at .75 ohms the drop would be .075V or 75mv. Depending on the digits the display has available, you can read up to 2ohms, or 200mv with the corresponding resolution. Also a LM334 would be a more stable and accurate source for the current, and this is what I will be using. Correction my bad, this is only the case if using it for a source up to 10ma. Up to 1 amp use the Lm317.
  I also hit on the idea that the exposed lengths both being kept short due to the higher resistance of Kanthal to Nickel, when I tried this in my first attempts at work with trouble during my free time, :Thinking: maybe the lengths should be varied so the higher resistance Kanthal would not  be prone to failure during welding, by adding resistance to make both wires more equal in resistance. By increasing length of "non resistance" wire or adding resistance to the wire on that side? Resistance higher typical 1.2-1.8 coil can use the lower power mod, but Sub ohming requires more power, so when the weld happens with them both set to short lengths the higher resistance wire heats up usually too quick causing failure.
  Bought 10 photo flash circuit boards from All Electronics for .85 each but shipping $8, Ouch!! Delivered in 3 days, just started playing with them today, didn' t add Extra Capacitance yet, tried 60-75 Volts and above, not real good results.
  Seen post yesterday for this circuit by "Breaktru" , real similar to the way I was already leaning, but I haven't, made anything yet, except in my head.
Fasttech has a Display I believe with similar capabilities. Good job as always for Breaktru  :thumbsup: I also noticed someone using what appeared to be a microprocessor for Display and Control, aka "Arduino" very interesting. Components are inexpensive if you buy the knockoffs, with great possibilities, the negative is that it will take a learning curve to learn how to do the programming.

I hit on how we made circuit to weld Platinum/(Plat-Rhodium) wire together to make precision welds for thermocouples, for possible interest of knowledge. Questioned if a welder could be made more similar to how a spot welder work? ;cheers; I will try to repost again for this.  Instrument Repair by trade.   
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on January 23, 2016, 04:29:55 PM
Here is a link which someone referred to which I find helpful to help understanding about rescaling.   http://www.eidusa.com/Electronics_DPVM.htm  
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on January 23, 2016, 04:35:15 PM
Here is a link which someone referred to which I find helpful to help understanding about rescaling.   http://www.eidusa.com/Electronics_DPVM.htm  
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on January 30, 2016, 01:07:01 PM
Breaktru,

I am finally getting enough free time to have a go at doing this but i can't find all of the schematics, is there any chance that you can post all of the ones you have done so far? I know i am asking a lot but i have searched and can't seem to find the one i am looking for!

Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 30, 2016, 02:10:02 PM
beefy, if you look at the first (OP) post you will see a link to"Wire Schematic/Diagram". That schematic post will have a link to the next schematic. Each posted schematic has a link to the next schematic.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on January 30, 2016, 02:32:37 PM
Doing that only gets me 3 different schematics. I need the one with just the PMLCDL meter being used as a voltmeter and nothing else but i can't find it. all i can seem to find is the ones before or the one after with all the resistance metering.

It's making my eyes hurt going through all this.

I knew i shouldn't of upgraded my pc...
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on January 30, 2016, 03:42:04 PM
Sorry,
It was the last link in the OP: With Volt and Ohm Meter (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg9176.html#msg9176)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on January 31, 2016, 05:28:17 PM
Hi Breaktru still planning stage.

 I was reviewing your circuit diagram again and at first I couldn't see the simplicity of you not removing  the existing smd resistor Ra and replacing with the values needed to get different scaling for ohm meter versus voltmeter, but electrically it would be the same as if you put the resistor across the voltage input terminals , AS NORMALLY DONE EXTERNALLY FOR THE DIVIDER NETWORK. This added resistor is for the attenuation of a higher voltage input down to the original 200mv level of the meter, so you are in parallel  with the internal op amp input. When compared to the more in depth information for the Murata DMS-20LCD voltmeter from Digikey, they internally don't even use a resistor in parallel with their op amp input on the 200mv and 2v models. This model I assume is only available in a standard 200mv range.  Assume Rb is a jumper as noted in literature, therefore electrically I should be able to leave jumper in and just put this resistor in series with the positive input instead if desired, right?

  Likewise you using only one 9.99M ohm resistor for Rb instead of 2 different Rb values (90K difference) as calculated or shown in the user manual for 20v (Equating to 20 ohm F.S.) and 200v scaling. Is this  because the change in total resistance and therefore current through the Ra used to create a voltage drop to be measured at the meters inputs is negligible for the ohm meter. Especially since you are not taking resistance measurements out to maximum decimal places available, and possibly compensated if necessary by adjusting the Lm317 output. A theoretical 198.222mv vs ideal 200.000mv drop at input at full scale resistance, and the resistors are what .5% tolerance anyways or approximately 50K ohms.
   I intended in my circuit to measure 200mv range F.S.to represent 2 ohms, so no need to change original range of inputs to represent ohms of wire to be measured. I intend to just send a constant 100ma into unknown resistance and measure the Voltage Drop. Possible over voltage with higher than 2 ohm resistance but meter input should be protected in original circuit for some minor over voltage? When I try to analyze your circuit I am confusing myself, due to you using a 20volt range I believe, maybe just tired? Any help you may give on your end would be appreciated. Doh:
 
   What decimal place is done by connecting P1 to P0, your visual shows the tenth place, but the literature states that for 200mv connect P3 to P0, and for 200v range also connect P3 to P0 which would make sense since a 3 1/2 digit meter usually is represented by for example 199.9 for ( 200v or 200mv) never reaching a 2 in the first digit?, or what decimal place is P3 to P0?

  I searched everywhere and cannot find a better meter for the price than the Velleman, the Digikey's  cheapest cost model (Murata DMS Series) is 3 times as much, and while it has some unique capabilities (direct ohm meter appl.) and very in depth literature it is also very confusing.   For example it states that for a 9v model both "(-) INPUT LO and (+) INPUT HIGH must always be at least 1.5V above -Battery and at least 1.5V below + BATTERY.", but using it as shown for a floating point measurement (0v to F.S.) they show Analog COMM tied to (-) IN LO, but in their application notes for "Analog Common and Reference In-Out", states some older Murata DPM's must be connected to the system power supply common, is not true for new DMS Series meters. In particular never ground pin 10 (Analog Common) on any DMS-20 meter, or any of the 9V models in the DMS-30 or 40 series.  States in " Input Config., P. Supplies, and Ground Loops Application Notes" 9V powered meters must never be wired in any configuration that has Inputs tied directly to or at the same potential as pin3 which is Supply Return or low or gnd. All 5V meters can be used to measure either single ended or differential inputs. In real world of DPM's many applications battery powered and also have their input referenced to or below the negative battery terminal, therefore 5V meters must be used or a 9v supply must use a 5V regulator chip.  Under "Analog Common notes" Pin 1 =+Battery should always be used as the refernce point if measuring Aanalog Common not pin3=(- Battery). 9V model seems only good for mostly not practical differential inputs uses only, without changing it to 5V isolated supply.   raged:
  The only other meter found which may work and has limited information available is on Ebay,http://www.ebay.com/itm/251877547606 , it has better accuracy .2% F.S., and worse input impedance =10M ohm, and only slightly more cost but Free Shipping, and slow delivery from China.
  Thank you Breaktru or anyone else who can help for your patience and understanding. I am the most long winded poster out there.
 
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on January 31, 2016, 07:18:35 PM
Sorry,
It was the last link in the OP: With Volt and Ohm Meter (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg9176.html#msg9176)

Thanks mate,

I don't want the resistance meter as well as i got bought a Coil Master 521 Tab for xmas so there is no point, but still have all the parts for the wire welding and want to go ahead with it, i have modified the schematic you posted to remove the resistance meter (hope you don't mind) could you check through it and see if my wiring is ok please?

Thanks again for all your help!

(http://i.imgur.com/6pV8kxQ.png)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on February 01, 2016, 08:53:24 AM
Hi beefy0678,

This is Duckster I saw the simplified schematic from Breaktru which you posted, and yes it is set for a 200v scaling and it looks perfect, so if you wired it accordingly it should work fine.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on February 01, 2016, 09:20:59 AM
Hi beefy0678,

This is Duckster I saw the simplified schematic from Breaktru which you posted, and yes it is set for a 200v scaling and it looks perfect, so if you wired it accordingly it should work fine.

Cheers mate, was worried that i had missed something out, always good to have a second pair of eyes on the job ain't it!

Plus i hope that this helps some people who just want to do the wire zapper part and not the whole thing, like myself! The other one was getting a bit too complicated for me!

Thanks again!
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on February 01, 2016, 10:09:13 AM
Hello Breaktru,

I had some time during my Midnight shift to think about my earlier posting and my confusion about the circuit. I am an electronics kind of guy who has forgotten a lot, but my math is usually right, and your circuit has always bothered me when I hear that you can only get it to read for the ohmmeter in the tenths place.

Please do me a favor and do a simple quick check put a known resistor say for example 15 ohms in place of where you measure your atomizer resistance, but put in series with that resistor your ammeter and let me know the Current reading, I am guessing that it will not be the 1 amp needed  to develop a 20v F.S. reading, probably some factor of ten less.   If it is about 100ma then when using the 20V scaling the readout would show about 1XXX =  015.0, because the voltage drop would not be 15V but 1.5V on a 20V scale, which is ultimately read as 150mv at the meter after being attenuated by your 9.99M ohm Rb and 100K ohm voltage divider.

If you wanted to read 20 ohm for F.S. if you used just no divider or default the 200mv range, the 20 ohms would show on the display as 19.99 using only a current of 10ma and the wire/coil and regulator would run cooler also. Possibly the circuit cannot generate the needed 1 Amp using a 9 volt battery for supply, you would be asking it to create a 20V drop across the measured resistor for full scale using a 9V source, sum of all drops around a loop should equal the source value or zero if it is added in. ( I believe)=Kirchoffs  voltage law ( http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/dccircuits/dcp_4.html )

I want my circuit to read to 3 decimal places, Greedy I guess, so this is why I was going to limit my Full scale to 2 ohms and use a 100ma constant current source, although I am also toying with the idea of a circuit to do also dual ranges to include 20 ohm reading using a selector for decimal point selection and an additional 10ma capability. Always trying to learn or make something better isn't this also what this forum is about, including helping each other to achieve this? ;cheers;
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Pantera on February 01, 2016, 12:55:48 PM
I would like to point out that the ohm circuit that breaktru used is 100ma.
See: http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg8584.html#msg8584
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on February 02, 2016, 09:42:41 AM
Well if the circuit that Breaktru used is indeed set at 100ma then, yes this is why he can only read to the tenth place using a 20V scaling, as I explained in my post. If  anyone wants to read to more places after the decimal point then they need to change the scaling, which wouldn't take much of a change in the existing circuit.   
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on February 02, 2016, 10:39:15 AM
Pantera,
Thank You for the link, I never saw this before, it would of saved me a lot of grief, it verifies what I said in my very first post trying to respond to " ILoveToBuild" who posted this « Reply #526 on: January 09, 2015, 02:21:39 AM , When I try to do a simple copy and paste it ends up the wrong location in thread. I am new to posting I can't even seem to copy the link for ILoveToBuild. Can you give any guidance on this or even using the "quote option"?
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on February 02, 2016, 10:57:28 AM
Patera and this is the subsequent reply by Breaktru to ILoveToBuild

The best we can do with this meter is read tenths. I have previously wired in a switch with P3 to P0 for ohms reading and what happens is an ohm reading like 01.5 will show as .015 You don't actually see the hundredths number. It just moves the decimal point.

I prefer the 200 ohm pot over the 500 ohm. It's better for a finer adjustment.

You won't see any difference with a 15K over the 10K for the discharge.

You won't be able to illuminate an LED as an On/Off indicator with a 1.5V AA battery. On my original Spark-O-Matic, I built a Joule Thief circuit as shown HERE (http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg6434.html#msg6434)
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 02, 2016, 11:55:02 AM
Yes Duckster, I had wired in a switch. One position used the 200V scale for welding (P1 to P0) and another position of the switch for the 200mV scale (P3 to P0). Like I said previously, it only moved the decimal point.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on February 02, 2016, 12:23:38 PM
The link that Pantera shows is originally posted by you, and it correctly shows exactly what I originally intended for my circuit, since most builds of mine are not higher than 2 ohms. It should yield 3 places after the decimal point and only 2 ohm maximum measure. Your later circuits where you are getting only one decimal place, your choice of voltage divider resistors implies you are going for a scaling of not 200mv but 20V, which would put the decimal point to 10ths.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on February 02, 2016, 12:27:00 PM
I am bouncing back and forth from your Forum and Ebay trying to find an appropriate plastic box. What size did you end up with, hate being from U.S. having to convert from metric measure when looking.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 02, 2016, 01:14:10 PM
The boxes can be found in the OP under "More Parts". Here's the link: http://breaktru.com/smf/index.php/topic,733.msg8251.html#msg8251

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on February 02, 2016, 02:24:49 PM
Upon reading some of the recent post, some are confused as the purpose of the P0=common, P1,P2,P3 these have absolutely nothing to do with the meter scaling, they only move the decimal point to reflect the correct range. A raw maximum reading =1999 which can represent 199.9V or 19.99V or 1.999V if there was a 2V range, or 199.9mV. You choose the Range desired, then set the decimal point appropriately. Just as 199.9 can represent 200V scaling or 200mV scaling as noted in Velleman User manual, and is why you will see both those scales using P0 to P3. I don't know why they are not clear about P0 to P1. The 500V based on choice of their resistors would use no decimal point. Maximum drop when 500V applied would be .05V or 50mV seen by the meter.

  In all cases other than the base 200mv range the total divider resistance will always be the sum of the 2 resistors( Ra + Rb) or always 10M total. Knowing this and using ohms law E/R=I, you'll find the current going through these resistors, once you know the current, you would then multiply it by the smaller voltage dropping resistor. E=I times R The input is wired across this resistor, same as the ohm meter application.

 !) 20V range meter would see E/R=20/10M=.000002Amps then this times Ra (100k)=.2V=200mV seen by meter
 2) 200V range meter would see E/R=200/10M=.00002Amps then this time Ra(10k)=.2V=200mV seen by meter

This is why it is scaling because you are dividing it down or attenuating the high Voltage down to the level which the meter is designed to see for Full Scale, it can NEVER be anything else for Maximum but it can be less as in the case of the 500V range. The 10M total resistance is what the manufacturer deems as  the ideal resistance to use, which is  Designed or dictated by/for the lowest scale or input which uses no External resistors to achieve the 200mV range.

Hope this isn't too confusing, I need to make picures and drawings to help explain, but I am new to this posting, not sure best way, Paint, Works or what program to use.  :wallbash: ;cheers; 
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Duckster on February 02, 2016, 02:54:34 PM
Breaktru thanks for the link for parts, already reviewed 16 pages on Ebay  exhausting!!!!! Hopefully my last post will help others. Trust me to all who have a working ohmmeter, which I don't have in hand, but you just need to use the existing switch to restore jumper removed which I believe was not a resistor originally but just a jumper,anyone have the removed SMD to check it, can't be too safe, no smoking circuits, don't need to remove the 9.99M resistor just short across it when using ohms, remove short when using volts, and don't use the 10K resistor across the Ra = no scaling= original 200mv range.

This is why for safety sake of the meter I would of tried the voltage divider totally external to inputs, for accuracy I can see eliminating any possible drops by using New Ra across existing Ra, but electrically I believe that Rb could of been external or in series with the correct input lead, with no difference to accuracy, come on it in the Meg ohm range no little drop or difference in current can be noticed due to some added wire length, the dropping resistor does matter.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on February 03, 2016, 12:51:36 PM
When you get around to building it, let us know your results
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on December 04, 2016, 04:27:25 PM
Finally made my first try, basic test model... only took 11 months lol! I had forgotten all about making this, all of my pieces were put away and collecting dust. The reason I wanted to make this was so I could make nr-r-nr clapton wire to re-wick coils from my tanks.

So I finally got around to digging out all my kit and made up this basic model in about 20 mins. Going to be testing it over the next week before making my finished model with the panel meter.

(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g383/beefy0678/tmp_1794-IMG_20161204_210935-740621428_zpspwkdd3cv.jpg)

(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g383/beefy0678/tmp_1794-IMG_20161204_210915-1051602829_zpsdunkw86i.jpg)

(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g383/beefy0678/tmp_1794-IMG_20161204_210901-1330114439_zpswqe14icf.jpg)

The button is just for charging the caps, like I said I am keeping it simple to start!

Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on December 04, 2016, 04:55:54 PM
Congrats beefy on your build. Simple but effective.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: beefy0678 on December 04, 2016, 05:08:45 PM
Congrats beefy on your build. Simple but effective.

And waaay overdue lol
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Mimms on December 04, 2016, 06:11:12 PM
Great beefy  :rockin smiley:
Let us know how welding the clapton coil works out  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: DRA on December 04, 2016, 08:14:41 PM
Finally made my first try, basic test model... only took 11 months lol! I had forgotten all about making this, all of my pieces were put away and collecting dust. The reason I wanted to make this was so I could make nr-r-nr clapton wire to re-wick coils from my tanks.

Better late than never  :laughing2:
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: hotamale35 on December 24, 2016, 04:45:45 AM
With the majority of the comments on this thread, the General consensus is around 320-340uf
Since I'm only gonna hit 75-90 or so volts  ,could I swap out cap on camera pcb with a 200V 330uf
Cap RATHER than having to add more to the smaller oem ones? Thx for input....
Great job breakthru :thankyou: ;cheers;
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: Breaktru on December 24, 2016, 06:41:48 AM
Yes hotamele. 200V 330uf should work fine by itself.
and thanks.
Title: Re: The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making
Post by: jhonlee2050 on August 29, 2017, 02:09:51 PM
I have this Spark-O-Matic thing down pretty good, you have to be careful fixing one of those brass alligator clip vertically