Author Topic: Tinkering with the Naos Raptor - 20A, 120W dc/dc converter... (Read 394896 times)

mamu · « **on:** December 21, 2013, 07:37:56 PM »

I know I know... crazy insane huh?

Got the NSR020A0X43Z (Naos Raptor 20A: Non-Isolated Power Module) in yesterday and just got it breadboarded. So far, so good with testing.

Initial testing was done with a 1.5 ohm dual coil carto. I only have 32ga and 34 ga A1 Kanthal, so have ordered 28ga A1 Kanthal to do a sub-ohm (0.2 - 0.5) micro coil on my RBA to see how this module and the batteries handle the load.

I tested with the Sony 30A 18650 batts, but also have the Orbtronic 30A 18650 batts on order and will be testing with those too and I also want to test with the Samsung 30A 18650 batts, but haven't ordered them yet.

I added an external 18A fuse (2x 9A in parallel) and an external 7.5K pull-down resistor across the control on/off pin and ground and also an external zener diode on the control on/off pin for under voltage shutdown at 6V. This module has a shutdown input voltage of 4.1, so adjusted that voltage cutoff to 6v with the zener diode.

I set the output voltage range from 3.3V to 6V using a 220ohm resister and 200 ohm POT (same setup as is on the OKR module).

When I get done testing it, I will be putting it in my flip-top case for use with dual 18650 batts and also add a voltage reader for input/output voltage monitoring.

If anyone decides to use this module in a mod, I would highly recommend using the control on/off pin even though it adds a bit of a mA drain (similar to the OKR module). Without it, voltage drop at higher output volts is significant.

Update: will be adding 2x22uF MLCC input caps. Thanks Craig!

Breaktru · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2013, 08:26:27 PM »

Great job and a very nice controller. I've seen that one before. As a matter fact I sent for a free sample a couple of years ago but never received it.

That's strange that not using the on/off pin would drop the output voltage. Anyway it's a good thing using it with the zener for cut-off. Well done mamu

Visus · « **Reply #2 on:** December 22, 2013, 12:25:27 AM »

Worlds most powerful e cig lol.

Anxious for packaging, thats a winner for the have to haves..

CraigHB · « **Reply #3 on:** December 22, 2013, 01:46:35 AM »

That's a pretty cool module.

I looked over that data sheet a bit. Output is impressive. It does need input capacitors. It doesn't carry those onboard, look at page 12 of the data sheet;

Quote

An input capacitance must be placed directly adjacent to the input pin of the module, to minimize input ripple voltage and ensure module stability.

I actually have the same input capacitance requirement for the buck-boost converter I'm working on. I'm using 2x22uF MLCC caps. These are the best ones I've found, really nice characteristics.

Data sheet says to leave the on/off pin floating if not using it so it shouldn't have any affect on output. Maybe you should try tying that pin to Vin instead and see if that makes any difference.

mamu · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2013, 03:11:19 AM »

Quote from: Breaktru on December 21, 2013, 08:26:27 PM

Great job and a very nice controller. I've seen that one before. As a matter fact I sent for a free sample a couple of years ago but never received it.

That's strange that not using the on/off pin would drop the output voltage. Anyway it's a good thing using it with the zener for cut-off. Well done mamu

Thanks!

Yeah it is strange. When I first set it up I did so without the control pin and ran it through various voltages. Couldn't get loaded volts past 5.0v no matter what. Hooked up the control pin and got max 5.9v loaded. Nothing else changed but adding the control pin.

Quote from: CraigHB on December 22, 2013, 01:46:35 AM

That's a pretty cool module.

I looked over that data sheet a bit. Output is impressive. It does need input capacitors. It doesn't carry those onboard, look at page 12 of the data sheet;

I actually have the same input capacitance requirement for the buck-boost converter I'm working on. I'm using 2x22uF MLCC caps. These are the best ones I've found, really nice characteristics.

Data sheet says to leave the on/off pin floating if not using it so it shouldn't have any affect on output. Maybe you should try tying that pin to Vin instead and see if that makes any difference.

I was looking for a 20A module and with max 6v output and this appears to be the only one. All others max at 5.5v.

Thanks for the clarification about the input cap.

I had ordered these caps and should get them Monday or Tuesday - http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/GRM32CF51C226ZA12L/490-3392-1-ND/702933 and http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/GRM32ER61C476ME15L/490-3888-1-ND/965930. But think I will order the ones you recommend and use them instead.

So - prob a n00b question here

why 2x22uF caps and not one larger, say 47uF, cap? I googled to find the answer but no luck. Is it along the same lines as paralleling 2 fuses to lower the resistance? Does paralleling 2 caps double the capacitance as it doubles the current in fuses?

CraigHB · « **Reply #5 on:** December 22, 2013, 04:24:19 AM »

There's several reasons you may want to parallel up caps. I could easily write several pages on this, but I'll try to stick to the basic points. It's mostly about ESR or equivalent series resistance. A capacitor has resistance as well as capacitance and this resistance can have negative effects for the function a capacitor performs. To skip any tedious explanations, less ESR is better.

Much like resistors in parallel reduces resistance, capacitors in parallel reduces ESR. This is a desired thing for most capacitor applications. Not always though. For example, some linear regulators have specific ESR requirements to achieve stability. Though, those types of linear regulators are being phased out for ones that can use MLCC caps. MLCC caps are becoming the standard capacitor any more. They just have huge advantages over other types of caps, but they have their issues too.

As MLCC caps are becoming the defacto cap, they have certain disadvantages that can be an issue in design. A characteristic called DC bias can in effect neutralize the capacitor if voltage applications are too high. By using capacitors in parallel, more component area can be dedicated to reducing the effect of DC bias.

Finally, inductance is something capacitors also carry along with them. It's properly known as ESL or equivalent series inductance. It's the opposite of capacitance so it's like capacitor poison, they cancel. Inductance can also create ugly voltage spikes causing electrical noise which can degrade the reliability of sensitive digital components. Paralleling capacitors reduces inductance much like paralleling resistors reduces resistance.

Well, I tried to keep that short and sweet, hopefully that helps. I left so much out, but any more would be way too tedious to write and to read.

Oh, one thing I thought of after after I made that last post is the stability dependence on the input caps. I bet the voltage issues you're seeing will go away once you add those. Converters exhibit strange behavior when they have stability issues. Believe me, I've seen them do some really bizarre things when tuning them on the bench. Sometimes there's just no rhyme or reason to it. Just getting your hand close to the board can cause them to go in and out of stability when they're right on the edge.

Breaktru · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2013, 06:29:42 AM »

Very good Craig. That was informative with out losing me

Now I know why some schematics use parallel caps. I always wondered why they draw a single cap symbol but reference 2x##uf

mamu · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2013, 07:52:05 AM »

LOL - me too breaktru.

Great info to know!! Thanks so much Craig!!

You didn't mention if the value changes when paralleling caps, so I assume it doesn't change. Paralleling caps decreases ESR and also ESL, but does not change the caps value - 2x 22uF or 4x 22uF is still 22uF, correct?

Breaktru · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2013, 08:13:51 AM »

Quote from: mamu on December 21, 2013, 07:37:56 PM

I added an external 18A fuse (2x 9A in parallel)

Looking at the datasheet, you may want to rethink the fuse rating

From Page 3, Table 1:

mamu · « **Reply #9 on:** December 22, 2013, 08:40:12 AM »

The datasheet says that those fuse values listed in Table 1 are suggested maximum fuse ratings and for "optimum circuit protection, the fuse value should not be any larger than required in the end application."

I don't think 18A limit would be a problem, but I chose that value so not to max out the 20A of the module plus I can't imagine anyone vaping even near an 18A load. Maybe my thinking is off, not sure.

Breaktru · « **Reply #10 on:** December 22, 2013, 09:09:25 AM »

Right mamu. You are correct "required in the end application". Doh

kortt · « **Reply #11 on:** December 22, 2013, 01:05:06 PM »

That's going to be a monster, thanks for sharing Mamu.

Looks like this is going to be one of those great 'learning" threads for those of us trying to wrap our heads around this stuff.

CraigHB · « **Reply #12 on:** December 22, 2013, 01:16:35 PM »

Quote from: mamu on December 22, 2013, 07:52:05 AM

Great info to know!! Thanks so much Craig!!

You didn't mention if the value changes when paralleling caps, so I assume it doesn't change. Paralleling caps decreases ESR and also ESL, but does not change the caps value - 2x 22uF or 4x 22uF is still 22uF, correct?

You're welcome guys, I enjoy discussing the rhetoric.

Yes, you deal with capacitance of series and parallel parts opposite of resistance. For capacitors, it adds in parallel and subracts in series. This is opposite of inductors and resistors that add in series and subrtract in parallel. The inducatance one is weird. It took me a long time to wrap my mind around how inductors in parallel subract.

For setting up capacitor arrays, you determine the capacitance requirement then divide by the number of caps to determine the required value of each cap. For the specific case in the module we're discussing, they are recommending a capacitance of 44uF (2x22uF) or 88uF (4x22uF) depending on the desired reduction of input ripple.

For our purposes space is a premium so the 44uF array would be ideal. However, input ripple can give you trouble and it's one of the disadvantages of this type of regulator. If you plan to run an MCU on the same board, you need to take care that the noise created by heavy input ripple does not cause problems for the digital parts of the circuit.

mamu · « **Reply #13 on:** December 22, 2013, 04:19:40 PM »

ok I got it now lol.

Paralleling caps decreases ESR and also ESL, and each individual cap's capacitance value is added.

This should be easy to remember then, it's the same as you taught us with fuses. Paralleling fuses decreases resistance, and each individual fuse's current value is added.

And with inductors and resisters - it's the opposite when paralleling them as the values are subtracted.

And from what I'm understanding, one of the main reasons for paralleling caps and fuses to get the total value we need, instead of using one large value cap or fuse, is to decrease the resistance added to the circuit.

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain this, Craig!! You make understanding electronics easy and you're a great teacher. Absolutely awesome!!

CraigHB · « **Reply #14 on:** December 23, 2013, 12:06:15 PM »

Welcome,

Yes, that was something I wanted to mention before, arrays allow you to acquire higher capcitance values since MLCC caps don't go as high as other types. There are issues with high value MLCC caps you can resolve by using several smaller ones, mainly the DC bias problem. The benefit that comes with that is lower ESR and ESL. Though the level of issues related to those two characterstics are frequency dependant so for lower frequencies it's less of a concern. For the frequencies you see with a swithing regulator it can become an issue. The modules people are using here and the ones I do myself typically switch around 500kHz where ESL and ESR start to become a considerable issue.

Visus · « **Reply #15 on:** December 23, 2013, 03:01:18 PM »

Which meter is off or does it drop .2v?

The turnigy meter reads 5.7 the 1-6 meter reads 5.9 hmm..

mamu · « **Reply #16 on:** December 26, 2013, 07:16:27 PM »

Got the Raptor Flip-Top mod done! manOman - awesome vape beast!

I'm vaping with it now with my dual coil 1.5 ohm RBA at 4.7v. Sweet vape!

I had been vaping with it with a 0.8 ohm nano coil on an RDA at 3.5v and that was mighty sweet too! But I hate dripping. bleh. But I loved the vape I was getting. But I hate dripping.

Voltage drop under load so far is none or 0.1. Awesome!!

During testing I attached a 0.3 ohm coil and ran it at 5v (83W and 17A) and both converter and batts (30A Sony 18650) handled the load aok - and no, didn't take a toke off that.

Converter powers off when the input voltage gets down to 6.2v - so can adjust the zener diode to a slightly lower voltage, but I'm fine with a cutoff of 6.2v so will leave as is. Metering the batts, the dominant batt read 2.75v and the other read 3.44v. So to drain both batts more evenly, need to switch batt positions when the input voltage gets down to around 7 volts (I had forgot to do that - boo on me lol).

Getting ready to close er up...

Takes 2, 18650 batts... yes - the batts are in series

- I wired the batt contacts so both batts are oriented the same way...

Displays input voltage...

Displays output voltage... range 3.3v - 6v (the tolerances of the resister plus POT I'm actually getting 3.39v - 6.1v with this build) ...

109mm x 58mm x 31mm...

Parts list:
SoShine dual channel 18650 charger (fasttech)

Naos Rapter (NSR020A0X43Z) 20A, 120W DC/DC Converter (digikey)

Fire switch (PV5S64011) (digikey)

2x22uF capacitors (C3225X5R1C226K250AA) (digikey) (I have those caps on order and plan to use them for future builds - thanks Craig! - in this build I used GRM32CF51C226ZA12L)

2x9A fuses (650-RGEF900) (digikey)

200 ohm POT (PT10MH01-201A2020) (mouser)

220 ohm and 7.5K ohm resisters, and 5.6v zener diode (various sites)

Mini 3-position slide switch (on/off/on) (I used Apem TG39P000000)

1S-6S voltage reader (ebay)

2x 18650 batts (recommend 30A discharge rating)

Wiring guide... I used 20ga for input/output/voltage reader, 22ga for the mini slide switch and POT...

kortt · « **Reply #17 on:** December 26, 2013, 07:35:40 PM »

Wow, what a beast! .1v drop off? wow, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing the parts list and wiring guide.

Breaktru · « **Reply #18 on:** December 26, 2013, 08:23:17 PM »

That is a mighty impressive build and the performance is stellar.
You picked the right batteries to feed that beast. Well done mamu.
Your write up and details are super as well. You know that your going to see several modders making this

Visus · « **Reply #19 on:** December 26, 2013, 08:38:47 PM »

Theres so many people misinformed of regulated vaping at ECF.
I made a post about this mod there I betcha they don't believe it is possible
or is a falsery like the mods who claim high power except the big names fail when tested..

A mech this a mech that, none of them can naos raptor :wave:where's the argument? Really?
A regulated mod cannot vape a sub ohm coil, so many misinformed.
Regulated mods at this level with this much safety, feel so much safer vaping a sub ohm coil

Walkie talkie mod that case

Loves it @Mamu

mamu · « **Reply #20 on:** December 26, 2013, 09:55:52 PM »

Thanks guys!

LOL about the walkie-talkie mod - that's what some of my friends call my mods with this case. And others call it my geek mod.

I was thinking about writing one of my detailed step-by-step for this, then thought the better of it and just listed the parts and the wiring. With this much power, I feel only experienced modders should be attempting this build. Modders who are familiar with battery safety and electronics safety. If someone can't figure out how to make this mod by just looking at the parts list and the wiring guide, then they aren't experienced modders and they shouldn't be building it. I may be wrong, but this is how I feel about working with this particular converter.

I built it for personal use and one of my sons has asked for one (he said he's going to steal mine when I go to bed lololol), so I'll be building one more.

And this does hit hard for the voltage. I usually vape my 1.5 ohm dual coil RBA at around 5.1v and sometimes a little higher, but I get a comparable hit at 4.7v with this mod. When I took that first hit dialed in at 5.1v, I almost choked. holy moly I thought, so I dialed it down to where I get the same hit I'm used to. Same with the 0.8 ohm nano coil RDA - I had to dial that down too.

Of course, the 20ga wiring helps with current flow, or it may be the extra pixie dust I threw in

I joke I joke, but it may just be the huge cushion of amps the converter provides or the efficiency it delivers the amps. I'm only supposing here, but I'm really liking it a lot.

Mandro · « **Reply #21 on:** December 27, 2013, 03:14:10 PM »

Great mod

I was thinking of using a voltage display as a battery voltage check but wasn't sure how to wire it so thanks for the details.

CraigHB · « **Reply #22 on:** December 28, 2013, 03:14:56 AM »

Looks like a good high output mod for running those super low resistance atties. Don't understand why people are saying it's not possible to do that at ECF. You can design things to do whatever you want, just a matter of selecting the right parts. The problem comes from using the wrong parts, that's when it can be hazardous.

So did the input caps resolve that strange issue with the on/off pin and variations in voltage?

Totally OT here, but I just got back from visiting inlaws over Xmas in Los Angeles, stayed in Seal Beach. Nice to get away from the cool temps here in Reno. Have to mention, it really was beautiful at the beach, best weather ever, like summer almost.

mamu · « **Reply #23 on:** December 28, 2013, 08:28:13 AM »

Quote from: Mandro on December 27, 2013, 03:14:10 PM

Great mod
I was thinking of using a voltage display as a battery voltage check but wasn't sure how to wire it so thanks for the details.

TY and YW Mandro.

I used that same configuration for the input and output voltage reading with OKR Denali and Dena. I fried a few OKR boards trying this and that until I finally got it right with using the on/off control of the converter and the 3-position on/off/on slide switch. I hadn't wanted to use the on/off control.

But that experience helped me with wiring this converter for input and output voltage display.

Quote from: CraigHB on December 28, 2013, 03:14:56 AM

...So did the input caps resolve that strange issue with the on/off pin and variations in voltage?

I set it up and tested - with caps on Vin and without using the on/off pin, the max output voltage will only go to 5v.

With caps on Vin and with using the on/off pin, the max output voltage will go to 6v.

So this is the same results as not having caps on Vin.

What i did notice though, and this is both with and without caps, is that when not wiring in the on/off pin, when pressing the fire switch it gets very warm very fast - so a lot of current must be passing through it and I wonder if that would restrict output voltage. With wiring in the on/off pin, the fire switch doesn't get warm at all so it's def taking the load off the switch.

I was testing with a 1.5 ohm dual coil carto so it wasn't pulling more than 3-4 amps under load at the various voltages. And i was using a 2A, 48VDC switch (PV5S64011)

The OKR doesn't restrict voltage when not using the on/off pin, and the fire switch doesn't get warm when not using the on/off pin, so this is really curious that this converter does that.

Visus · « **Reply #24 on:** December 28, 2013, 01:31:47 PM »

Quote from: CraigHB on December 28, 2013, 03:14:56 AM

Looks like a good high output mod for running those super low resistance atties. Don't understand why people are saying it's not possible to do that at ECF. You can design things to do whatever you want, just a matter of selecting the right parts. The problem comes from using the wrong parts, that's when it can be hazardous.

So did the input caps resolve that strange issue with the on/off pin and variations in voltage?

Totally OT here, but I just got back from visiting inlaws over Xmas in Los Angeles, stayed in Seal Beach. Nice to get away from the cool temps here in Reno. Have to mention, it really was beautiful at the beach, best weather ever, like summer almost.

Unaware of electronics you only need to watch a few videos of many mods on youtube and have regulated mods all figured, they do not fire below 1.2ohms and some do not fire below 1.5ohms, oh yes they know all about regulated mods then..

Its 50 degrees here in Chicago last week we were at 10 below zero next week supposed to be in the cold cellar again.

mamu · « **Reply #25 on:** December 29, 2013, 03:04:58 PM »

I’ve found 2 18650 batts that are aok with this mod.

Based on my testing, I would only recommend the Orbtronic SX30 18650 30A 2100mAh and the Sony 18650 US18650VTC3 30A 1600mAh.

Output varies between 0.0 and 0.1 voltage drop under load. Input varies between 0.1 and 0.2 voltage drop under load with a cutoff of 6.2v unloaded and 6.0v loaded.

POS (piece of s**t don’t buy or use these lol) 18650 batts are the 30A Efest and 30A MNKE batts. I highly doubt they are 30A as rated else the internal resistance is high. Horrible horrible input/output voltage drop under load with a cutoff around 6.8v unloaded (drops to 6.0v loaded).

I did not test, or buy, the Samsung 30A 18650 batts cuz this batt needs a special charger, or a modded charger, that requires 4.35v to fully charge the batt.

Visus · « **Reply #26 on:** December 29, 2013, 04:13:42 PM »

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650comparator.php
use the pull down if not already familiar,

@ 20 amps the efest are not to shabby on test here. My test match identical with theirs from my seller.. No where near the sony's but marginally ok..

Make sure you do not have rebadged batts the efest are notorious for clones..

CraigHB · « **Reply #27 on:** December 29, 2013, 04:24:15 PM »

The ultra-high drain Japanese 18650s are very good, even better than a LiPo for drain characteristics in some cases. For example, the Sony US18650VTC3 has 12 mOhms internal impedance which is exceedingly low. The 2200mAh hobby LiPos I have are about 5 mOhms and the 1000mAh ones are about 20 mOhms so that's pretty amazing.

There's a number of cell models that charge to 4.35V. I'm using the LG 18650 D1 in one of my mods and it's an incredibly well performing cell. I use a 4.35V charger controller for it, the Microchip MCP73833-NVI specifically. However, I have not seen that any of them are high drain. The ones I'm using are 2C and I use two in parallel to get the drain high enough for my electronics. The Samsung ICR18650-30B is another 4.35V cell that is also 2C.

In general, the higher voltage 2C cells are excellent performers with very nice looking discharge curves, however, they don't have particularly low internal resistance or particularly high drain limits. The LG cells I'm using are about 60 mOhms and top out with a continuous drain of 6 Amps.

There's a some nice looking ultra-high drain Japanese cells besides the Sony one. There's a the 2000mAh Samsung INR18650-30R and there's a new ultra-high drain cell from LG that came out. It supposedly has 2500mAh and 12 mOhms internal resistance which blows all the rest out of the water. I've only seen it once on a web listing and I'm not postiive on the details, but if that's correct, it's a pretty big jump in performance.

mamu · « **Reply #28 on:** December 30, 2013, 12:12:04 AM »

Quote from: CraigHB on December 29, 2013, 04:24:15 PM

...there's a new ultra-high drain cell from LG that came out. It supposedly has 2500mAh and 12 mOhms internal resistance which blows all the rest out of the water. I've only seen it once on a web listing and I'm not postiive on the details, but if that's correct, it's a pretty big jump in performance.

Thanks for mentioning that, Craig.

I've found em here: http://www.batterysupports.com/lg-lgdahe21865-36v-30a-high-drain-2500mah-lithium-ion-lion-p-158.html

and here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-LG-LGDAHE21865-HIGH-DRAIN-2500mAh-30A-3-6V-Lithium-ion-Li-on-18650-Battery-/321228740878?_trksid=p2054897.l4275#ht_8930wt_1051

ordered a few to try out.

LG LGDAHE21865 HIGH DRAIN 2500mAh 30A Rechargeable Lithium Li-on 18650 Battery

Description:
· Li-ion 2500mAh 18650 cell
· Product Name : LG LGDAHE21865 Lithium-ion Rechargeable Battery
· Model : 18650
· Norminal Capacity : 2500mAh
· Diameter : 18.0mm
· Height : 65.0mm
· Weight(Typical) : 45g
· Max. Continuing Charge Current : 30A
· Internal resistance : 13mOhm
· Charge Method: Constant Current and Constant Voltage(4.2V)
· Nominal Voltage : 3.7 V
· Discharge Temperature : -20°C ~ +60°C

CraigHB · « **Reply #29 on:** December 30, 2013, 02:26:21 AM »

Cool, will be interested to hear how they do on the bench. Pretty hard to believe they can put out like the Sony cell and carry an additonal 900mAh, but LG generally doesn't exaggerate specs so they should perform as expected. The 2C ones I have test out even a bit better than the ratings. Data sheet says 70 mOhms, but it's more like 60 and they hit the 3000mAh rating at drain levels higher than 1/5C.

Visus · « **Reply #30 on:** December 30, 2013, 09:43:05 PM »

Efest heard ya Mamu they just released a new 35a batt 18650 http://www.efestpower.com/Product/835619153.html
:thumbsdwn2:doesn't list the resistance..

mamu · « **Reply #31 on:** January 07, 2014, 02:50:12 PM »

LOL Visus - you're talking to deaf ears there - I won't ever buy another Efest batt. pos pos pos

So I got a bit irritated yesterday cuz the batts rattle a bit inside this case when I set it down or pick it up... I fixed that right up by removing the case's negative batt contacts and put in 2x Keystone C negative spring contacts... nice and snug now with no rattle at all.

Had to shape the contact's base a bit using the dremel so it fits and that neither contact touches the other, then used a pair of pliers to squeeze the spring a bit and torch it (like we do with micro coils) to lower the height of the spring - fits and works great.

CraigHB · « **Reply #32 on:** January 07, 2014, 03:25:56 PM »

Yea, rattles bug me too, even if it's hardly noticeable. I've had that happen before. I have a mod I use a lot that has just the tinest bit of rattle from the battery pack having a bit too much clearance on one end. Only makes a noise if I set it down hard on the table, still bugs me.

Visus · « **Reply #33 on:** January 07, 2014, 06:22:05 PM »

Quote from: mamu on January 07, 2014, 02:50:12 PM

LOL Visus - you're talking to deaf ears there - I won't ever buy another Efest batt. pos pos pos

Shh my batts are listening....

Now using a 650mah 15c lipo in a 4050c 12hr 3 ohm vape opposed to 4-6 hours with 700mah v2efest14500. The lipo could go a lot further but I already ran it to 2.3v in one vape, after vaping past 3.4v it drops like a rock.. I love lipo's now ...

I was so scared it was a bulging bomb to be and monitored its charge, no bulger and it took the charge.. phew.... now charge at 3.6v and thats 12 hours of use uber chain vaping.. I love the 4050c... BTW when I vaped anything under 2ohms with the efest they would heat up really fast -- the lipo ice cold..

CraigHB · « **Reply #34 on:** January 08, 2014, 02:42:01 PM »

LiPos do that, they puff up if you over-discharge them. In general, a puffy LiPo is a bad LiPo. I've had them do that a little bit even with normal wear over extended periods of time. They can take some abuse, but for sure they don't like being over-dischaged too deeply.

They do peform well. They don't have the best energy density of the Li-Ion types, but they deliver energy better than most of the others.

I thought the eFast batteries where decent, but it seems people have their issues with them. I guess that's an avoid on those. Doesn't surprise me though, it's always a bad sign when makers fudge the ratings, which they do to an extent on the eFest batteries.

warlordxxx · « **Reply #35 on:** January 08, 2014, 03:39:38 PM »

I heard tell (and don't quote me on this because i'm not 100% sure) that the efest 35A was just a rewrapped LG 35A cell ...

Visus · « **Reply #36 on:** January 08, 2014, 04:29:13 PM »

Quote from: CraigHB on January 08, 2014, 02:42:01 PM

LiPos do that, they puff up if you over-discharge them. In general, a puffy LiPo is a bad LiPo. I've had them do that a little bit even with normal wear over extended periods of time. They can take some abuse, but for sure they don't like being over-dischaged too deeply.

They do peform well. They don't have the best energy density of the Li-Ion types, but they deliver energy better than most of the others.

I thought the eFast batteries where decent, but it seems people have their issues with them. I guess that's an avoid on those. Doesn't surprise me though, it's always a bad sign when makers fudge the ratings, which they do to an extent on the eFest batteries.

EFEST
V2 14500 700mah 2pack
They are not holding a charge and are only a month and a half old. They have not been abused, only overdischarged maybe twice after you warned me and Break said 6.7v toss on charger, I started noticing at 6.7v it starts a small rattle sound and never went past that, so again they are pos....

Off the charger 4.17v, 6am today, now at 2:50pm, this afternoon they both are down to 3.90 and 3.92. I bought two sets, didnt cost that much but its equivalent to two aw batteries that would have lasted me years.. So sad about it. I had read this happening to others and thought maybe they had clones but no --

Second set is still holding charge fine, crossing fingers I have not overdischarged that set once but they are three weeks younger.. I am writing their company a nice email..

So was hoping they were an alternative to the AW, I know the AW is golden but the test results were just a hair off with the efest and the price is awesome..

The lipo's really are great for our mods and will be 99% of what I use from here.. Ice cold lipo stays above 3.7v for most of my vaping its unbelievable comparing it to the efest.. After 8 hours of vaping they are still at 3.8-9v about 10 hours hits 3.7 and stay there, then I am throwing them on the charger so they never really see 3.6 lol yes overtly obnoxious care now.. Easy enough just clip and stare at orangish led for two and half hours then I can vape like a boss again. Dang 8060 vaping so powerful lol I am a weeny and that mofo packs dynamite..

They have to have some warranty or such in place..

The batts are a little warmer off charger as well, not hot but warmish unlike when they were new or the newer set which is ambient..

mamu · « **Reply #37 on:** January 08, 2014, 04:59:18 PM »

Both the 30A Efest and the 30A MNKE cut out on the Raptor at 6.8v unloaded at the power I'm vaping at.

The 30A Orbtonics batts cut out at 6.4v-6.5v unloaded and the 30A Sony batts cut out at 6.2v unloaded.

All batts are rated at 30A, I don't know how accurate that amp rating is for each batt, but the Efest and MNKE have high internal resistance. To me that is not a quality batt and it leaves me frustrated to get such short vape times and for them to cut out at higher volts. And there's not a huge price difference between any of these batts.

The 5.6v zener diode is doing a great job of undervoltage protection cutoff at 6v. When I posted before about it cutting off at 6.2v, I mistakenly used the Sony unloaded 6.2v without checking its loaded voltage lol. Each time now I check at what loaded voltage the batts are cutting out at and it is always 6v loaded.

So those Efest and MNKE batts have a horrible voltage sag under load with the Orbtonics trailing that a bit and the Sony doing a most excellent job.

I'll update when I get the LG batts.

CraigHB · « **Reply #38 on:** January 09, 2014, 02:54:32 PM »

Internal resistance is a biggie and people don't really pay much attention to it. It's the very first spec I look at when checking out a cell's data sheet. That's the great thing about LiPos, they have very low internal resistance. The super high drain round cells (like the Sonys) compete nicely with a LiPo, but for the most part, round cells have much higher internal resistance than LiPos do.

That's a very bad sign if you're getting big voltage drops (which means high internal resistance) from batteries that claim a high drain. Drain limits are directly a function of internal resistance since it comes down to heat. The lower the resistance, the less heat. Thereby, the more drain they can handle.

There's a huge safety consideration with a cell that claims high drain that does not exhibit low internal resistance. You can get into an overheating situation which is the number one thing to avoid with Li-Ion cells.

The fact you're seeing big sags in voltage with the MNKE and eFest 30A cells is a massive ding against them.

c1truz · « **Reply #39 on:** January 10, 2014, 10:55:20 AM »

I've been watching and reading this post for a while. Great job! I looked at this module for a while but with my mind on using a MCU controller the 200 Ohm pot is a real turn off

. I need to make a non MCU mod soon though. I'm about to go crazy learning all the programming. UGH lol. Anyway again...great job!

Oh and while looking at those LG batteries. They seem to all have disappeared in the last week unless you look at alibaba.

mamu · « **Reply #40 on:** January 10, 2014, 06:47:33 PM »

Thanks c1

The LG batts aren't sold out here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/321228740878?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

I got the ones I ordered today. Came off the charger at 8.6v so that was curious (I didn't measure them individually - just used the Raptor's input volts reading - wish I had measured them individually now).

Been vaping with them since this morning on the Raptor. So far, 0.0 volts drop loaded output, 0.3 volts drop loaded input.

Will update what the cutoff unloaded voltage is. They're currently at 8.3v unloaded input, so that will be a while. woot!!

rrtwister · « **Reply #41 on:** January 10, 2014, 07:51:53 PM »

Great job mamu

Looks cool and powerful. I think Captain Kirk had one of those. Beam me up Scotty

ADozer · « **Reply #42 on:** January 10, 2014, 11:50:13 PM »

Firstly: Awesome job, very inspirational.
Secondly: When poking around the data sheet for this and other dc-dc buck converters. I noticed that the Muratas have a maximum amp draw listed that is usually less than their rated maximum output, while the GE Industrial products have it listed as equal to the maximum output for the most part. Are they using a different rating basis for these measurements? Or are the topologies working in a different way to cause this?

CraigHB · « **Reply #43 on:** January 11, 2014, 03:25:53 PM »

There's only two topologies commonly used for the modules, buck or boost. There's only one commonly used boost module for building mods and that's the TI one. That's excluding the complete boards like the DNA20 and other complete boards. The rest of the modules are all buck which requires series cells. Unless you mean something else when you say "topology", that would not have any bearing on it.

When a maker claims a power rating for any kind of regulator, it's always with respect to output. It's generally implied that it can handle the input required to produce that output.

In terms of what a module can handle when the rubber hits the road, it depends on the maker. Based on experiences I've read about, the TI modules are under-rated pretty heavily. They can put out a lot more than the stated ratings. It sort of perplexes me why TI would do that. If a module can handle 80W why not state that in the ratings, but whatever. I doubt that's the case for the Murata modules. When they say 50 Watts, they mean 50 Watts.

CraigHB · « **Reply #44 on:** January 11, 2014, 03:41:39 PM »

Quote from: mamu on January 10, 2014, 06:47:33 PM

I got the ones I ordered today.

At some point, try a heavy drain test on them to see how much voltage sag you get. I'd like to hear how they stack up against the Sony cells. Like I said before, if the internal resistance is similar and the cells carry an additional 900mAh of charge, that's quite impressive. I may use those cells the next time I do a mod with dual 18650s.

ADozer · « **Reply #45 on:** January 11, 2014, 03:51:37 PM »

Yeah, I noticed that the okr data sheet isn't quite as specific as the naos raptor one when it comes to what the conditions are for maximum amp draw. I *think* its safest to assume that any regulator that can put out Xamps will draw Xamps under full loading.

CraigHB · « **Reply #46 on:** January 11, 2014, 04:08:17 PM »

It's really dependant on the regulator. For a linear regulator, they can consume as much as double the output power. Since switching regulators conserve power except for some losses, they usually have input power only 10 to 20% above output power. The better the converter, the closer input power is to output power. That's defined as efficiency in percent, input power over output power times 100

mamu · « **Reply #47 on:** January 26, 2014, 06:33:26 AM »

I forgot - I was suppose to update this thread with the LG batts. They did awesome for longevity and cut out at 6.4v unloaded. Range 0.2-0.4v drop input load and remained 0.0 drop output load.

So the LG 30A 18650 batt has moved to #1 spot for me (because it has the longest run time) and the Sony 30A 18650 batt #2 spot (best unloaded cutoff voltage). Hope the LG batts will be readily available soon.

oh... I was doing a search and come across an old thread where we first started talking about the problems with these converters with low voltage cutoff and the problems with the lead batt discharging more... Low Voltage Cut Out

timesarerough · « **Reply #48 on:** January 27, 2014, 09:54:10 PM »

For those testing the LG 2500 mah batts (LGDAHE21865).....the actual model number is LG ICR18750HE2 and are rated as a 20A discharge batt, not 30A....according to my source.

There's no data yet on the net showing that model number, so maybe somebody has some time to check on LG's commercial battery site, assuming there is one....like Panasonic's?

My distribution source has these in stock right now ($4.60/ea unit price) and I'm also trying to get the same IMR's that AW uses.

bapgood · « **Reply #49 on:** January 28, 2014, 03:29:45 PM »

Quote from: timesarerough on January 27, 2014, 09:54:10 PM

For those testing the LG 2500 mah batts (LGDAHE21865).....the actual model number is LG ICR18750HE2 and are rated as a 20A discharge batt, not 30A....according to my source.

There's no data yet on the net showing that model number, so maybe somebody has some time to check on LG's commercial battery site, assuming there is one....like Panasonic's?

My distribution source has these in stock right now ($4.60/ea unit price) and I'm also trying to get the same IMR's that AW uses.

I have seen several different LG part numbers with the same data sheet, a lot of which list max at 20a and max plus at 30a. I'm guessing max and max plus is similar to lipo c rating.....25c/50c 25c continuous and 50c burst.

Google came up with a big fat goose egg on the (LG ICR18750HE2) part number you listed.