Author Topic: Battery Discussions (Read 72889 times)

CraigHB · « **Reply #50 on:** November 24, 2011, 04:18:04 PM »

Quote from: Breaktru Admin on November 24, 2011, 01:09:39 PM

Thanks Craig.
I plan on using this:
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10217

Should work just fine, like to see what you come up with. Should be interesting.

Oh, the trick on soldering those battery terminals; hit them with some fine steel wool beforehand and use lots of flux, active rosin in paste or liquid should do the job.

tomc · « **Reply #51 on:** November 30, 2011, 09:04:56 AM »

BreakTru,

New to the forum. This looks great. I got here after Googling for info on the TI chip to regulate voltage in a mod. I'm a total modding newbie and it looks like you have some great info here (and better focused than ECF).

I saw your chart on C ratings above. Did you compile that yourself or is it available online. The reason I ask is that I just ordered a mod that will take 2 16350s (RCR123a) batteries and the manufacturer recommended 2 Tenergy LIFEPO4 batteries (3 volts each) to vape at 6 volts. Based on the chart above I won't be getting much current. The ICR or IMR versions of the 16350s are 3.7 volts so using them would give me a combined voltage of 7.4 which sounds a bit to high.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Breaktru · « **Reply #52 on:** November 30, 2011, 10:12:25 AM »

Quote from: tomc on November 30, 2011, 09:04:56 AM

BreakTru,

New to the forum. This looks great. I got here after Googling for info on the TI chip to regulate voltage in a mod. I'm a total modding newbie and it looks like you have some great info here (and better focused than ECF).

I saw your chart on C ratings above. Did you compile that yourself or is it available online. The reason I ask is that I just ordered a mod that will take 2 16350s (RCR123a) batteries and the manufacturer recommended 2 Tenergy LIFEPO4 batteries (3 volts each) to vape at 6 volts. Based on the chart above I won't be getting much current. The ICR or IMR versions of the 16350s are 3.7 volts so using them would give me a combined voltage of 7.4 which sounds a bit to high.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Welcome to the forum tom,

Yes, I found the "C" ratings online somewhere.

Always go with the manufactures recommended battery. If the mod is NOT V.V. and your voltage is subject to the total battery voltage, using 3.7v each cell will be way over the top for a vapable voltage.

CraigHB · « **Reply #53 on:** December 01, 2011, 07:49:40 PM »

You can use series 3.7V cells unregulated if you can find a 4.5 to 5 ohm atomizer. I've seen them around. Though the wattage is still pretty high, 10 to 12 Watts. Not extreme, but definitley on the hot side. Most people run the 3.2V Li-Ions in series. You get a good power level that way, but you take a pretty big hit on run time.

johnpencraig · « **Reply #54 on:** March 07, 2012, 12:57:30 PM »

Quote from: Breaktru Admin on November 21, 2011, 10:45:33 AM

Any recharging circuits advise for a double and even single battery would be of interest to member modders, I'm sure. If you would like to post one perhaps you can start a USB charging thread.

(Can't start a new thread as this is my first post here!)

I'd be interested in opinions about the onboard charging arrangement on a twin 18650 Evercool (PTH08080 WAD) mod I bought -

It contains this 2s PCM battery holder , (holding 2 x AW IMR in series) wired to a 2 pole DC panel socket, which accepts this 8.4v smart charger
In use, it's very convenient, and I've seen no problems reported. However, after reading posts such as this, I'm wondering if it's:
1) a simple solution that no-one's thought of before, or
2)Unbalanced and so a possible source of problems. (And, if so, what those problems might be)

Thanks for this forum, by the way. I'm finding it very useful in my gropings toward a familiarity with these electronics.

CraigHB · « **Reply #55 on:** March 07, 2012, 04:50:11 PM »

Those battery holders are a convenience in that they include the protection PCB. You can get protection PCBs from various sources so it's not like it's offering something that was previously unavailable. Though, it's definitely something that can come in handy.

There's two ways to charge a two cell series pack. One way is with a balancing charger that uses 3 wires. The other is with a pack charger that uses two wires. A balancing charger provides a connection to each cell in the pack. A pack charger connects to the positive and negative ends of the pack. You can use a two wire charger if you want, but a three wire charger is better because it does what the name implies, keeps the cells balanced. People have used two wire chargers on their series cells without issue so it's not something untried.

Oh, welcome to the forum BTW.

Breaktru · « **Reply #56 on:** March 07, 2012, 05:02:39 PM »

Some one posted this link: Protecetion Board Charger
this morning over at ECF. Is this what you are talking about Craig?

johnpencraig · « **Reply #57 on:** March 07, 2012, 05:32:43 PM »

Thanks for the answer, Craighb - it's put my mind at rest!

CraigHB · « **Reply #58 on:** March 07, 2012, 05:35:17 PM »

Quote from: Breaktru Admin on March 07, 2012, 05:02:39 PM

Some one posted this link: Protecetion Board Charger this morning over at ECF. Is this what you are talking about Craig?

Pretty much, yeah. There's also a wide range of protection PCBs available here.

Quote from: johnpencraig on March 07, 2012, 05:32:43 PM

Thanks for the answer, Craighb - it's put my mind at rest!

Welcome

Breaktru · « **Reply #59 on:** March 07, 2012, 05:50:41 PM »

Quote from: CraigHB on March 07, 2012, 05:35:17 PM

Pretty much, yeah. There's also a wide range of protection PCBs available here.

Thanks for the link. Nice stuff to be had there.

Madmanmacguyver · « **Reply #60 on:** March 30, 2012, 04:32:21 PM »

these are the same holders w PCB basicly and have a 2.5 cutoff...the down side is acharger is required to engage the pcb circuit...

maxpayne · « **Reply #61 on:** April 27, 2014, 02:59:56 PM »

Hi Folks

I'm new here so bear with me as i have a battery question, i did search first but couldn't find the info i wanted. I am currently using a SunBox mod that uses a dna12 power module, it runs on 18490/18500 batteries, it does not work with my efest v2 18500 but did to start and now only works using my AW Protected 18500 3.7V Battery. Am i ok using protected batteries with a dna 12 or will it conflict with the dna since that is also proteced?
Thanks in advance

CraigHB · « **Reply #62 on:** April 27, 2014, 04:29:17 PM »

It's fine, you can use a protected battery with the DNA 12 as long as you have no operational issues with it (like the battery protection tripping). Though, I believe that eFest 18500 battery is an IMR cell so it's actually the more appropriate battery. I would suspect your eFest battery is worn out.

SilenTDoGz · « **Reply #63 on:** June 04, 2014, 05:40:01 PM »

maybe a stupid question....but search as i might, i cannot find one mod that utilises a Lipo in a straight unregulated mod.......why is that ?

for example.....this one http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__51841__Turnigy_nano_tech_Ultimate_6400mah_1S2P_90C_Hardcase_Lipo_Pack.html.....is £16.84 ($28.20)
at 90c constant discharge.....on say.....a 0.2ohm coil....i would not have thought you could even get it to blink !.....never mind break into a sweat....the form factor is reasonable, should even fit into a box just a little larger than a Hanamod (which i have....grrrrr)

where as.....

2x sony 26650's in the UK are £19.00 ($31.81) and combined are only 5200mah.....without the fact you cant find a battery sled for them, etc,etc

i DO understand the volatility of lipos.....if mistreated, and that can be said for ANY battery, but is there any other good reason why people have not used them more?

CraigHB · « **Reply #64 on:** June 04, 2014, 05:53:39 PM »

You could use a 1S LiPo like that in an unregulated mod if you want. The "C" rating is very high, much higher than you could ever get with a traditional round cell.

The problem with LiPos in general is they occupy more space for a given charge capacity. You can get big "C" ratings with LiPo cells but that comes at a cost. Generally people try to minimize the size of an e-cig, but if you don't care about that, you can use whatever battery you like, even a lead-acid battery if that suits your needs better.

You probably don't see mods for sale with cells like that simply because they are too big. You can use a smaller LiPo, but then you give up run time for it.

That's not to say LiPos are no good in general. The ones with a lower C rating have better energy density so they're more suitable for an e-cig. It's just the high C ones that are not. Even so, you're right, you just don't see unregulated mods for sale that use LiPo cells. Though you can always just build one yourself.

Thinking about this a bit more, compare dimensions between that battery and two high drain 18650s;

93x47x18.3, 6400mAh, 600A drain

65x36x18, 5000mAh, 60A drain

There's a bit more capacity with the LiPo but in terms space consumed, it's 80cc for the LiPo versus 40cc for the two 18650s. So there's double the space consumed with the LiPo, but only 30% more charge capacity.

In terms of drain limit, there's a point of diminished returns when powering an atomizer. Once you get above 30A, you don't get much benefit in going any higher.

SilenTDoGz · « **Reply #65 on:** June 04, 2014, 06:35:05 PM »

Thank you Craig, as always when YOU reply , i learn more and more each day !

to be true , my biggest bug-bear with mods is the Run-time....and as much as i would like to build a nice 20W raptor or equivalent....coz i DO like a regulated mod.....i need maybe better equipment to build one !.....a dremel would be nice, and a nice soldering station !

.....but hey, that COSTS!.........and a lot of parts aren't available for another month or 2 !

but even if i DID have the good equipment , i still would not be looking at 18650's if i could help it !....i sit driving a Truck for up to 15 hours a day, and all i got to do is listen to a radio and Vape and swap out batteries......oh, and pay attention to the road sometimes

.....so size of mod is not my issue. but i know from the Hana.....even at 20 watts..never mind the 30W...i go through the battery charge in an hour .....and it takes 3 hours to charge it !!!....a single 18650 is not for me !

so anything i build, i will be looking at maximum vape time , without faffing around swapping out batteries all the time.

so if i read you right, the higher the C rating, the less efficient.....a 6000mah at say 20c would give me better service than a 6000mah 90c?......i dont actually make coils lower than 0.4 or0.5ohm to be fair......and mostly i will be around 0.8/9

Ah ok , you modified your answer as i was typing....ok, i see that.

....and if i used 2x18650's in series with , say a 20W raptor, or an okl2 T20.....would i get even better run time than an equivalent 2/3s lipo......size per size?

CraigHB · « **Reply #66 on:** June 04, 2014, 07:20:59 PM »

Actually, the higher the C rating the better the efficiency, but the lower the charge capacity. Efficiency of a cell is proportional to drain limit. The higher the drain limit, the lower the internal resistance of the cell and the less energy is wasted in charge passing through the cell. It also means more power is delivered to the atomizer and less wasted in the cell which improves atomizer performance (when not regulated) and better utilizes the available charge capacity.

Sounds like what you need is a passthru type of device, something you can plug into the cigarette lighter socket and charge while you vape. Lots of devices available like that and they often use a LiPo cell. Easy to build one yourself if unregulated. Just need to add a USB charger board. Those are inexpensive and easy to install. 1A rate USB charger boards are widely available.

I'm a pretty heavy vaper myself, I can consume 6000mAh in a day if I'm not busy with my hands. A 1A rate provides a charging capability of 16Ah a day so my 1A USB chargers can easily keep up with me. Even if you vape more heavily than I do, a 1A charger should be able to keep up with you when running in a passthru mode.

Sorry about the edits BTW, have a real bad habit of editing posts after I make them. I should probably just add another post, but then that looks kind of weird.

rc3po · « **Reply #67 on:** June 21, 2014, 01:36:16 AM »

Man I thought I vaped a lot. An Efest IMR 18650 2000mah in my new E-LVT at 8W will last me nearly 2 days. I'm no expert but maybe people that are vaping constantly should raise their nicotine level.
What do yall think?

CraigHB · « **Reply #68 on:** June 21, 2014, 02:20:49 AM »

Of course the less power you use, the more run time you get. Increasing power makes more vapor and delivers more nicotine. I've found it to be pretty much a case of double the power, double the juice consumption and double the nic intake. It's probably not exactly that, but it seems to be in the ballpark.

For me, if I raise my nicotine level, I just get more nicotine. I was the same way as a smoker, I smoked the same no matter how strong the cigs so I had to smoke light ones. It comes down to the habit more than anything else, but that's just me.

rc3po · « **Reply #69 on:** June 21, 2014, 08:47:45 PM »

I was thinking that maybe people were vaping more because their bodies wanted more nicotine. I noticed that I would tend to vape more when I reduced the nic level of my juice.
I like a cooler vape myself.

Jasen · « **Reply #70 on:** June 22, 2014, 12:45:01 AM »

I was like Craig with analogs. The last 15 years of analogs I was smoking ultra lights.

Sometimes I do find myself vaping more often, I equate it to not having to vape the whole tank as w/ an analog you generally smoke the whole thing, vaping I can just hit it here and there. Theres no smoking on a job site unlike to good old day's, so I could only smoke at breaks or torch one down quick if away from the building getting materials or headed to the job shack etc, but now I can just take a few puffs off my PV when the urge hit's me and no one really cares. The other day our project manager was on site and said he appreciated me vaping vs smoking, it doesn't stink and neither do I, which lead to a 10 min discussion and a non smoker now educated about vaping.

CraigHB · « **Reply #71 on:** June 22, 2014, 06:59:09 PM »

That's one thing with smoking, it kind of provides a natural break the way you have to light one and then it burns down. With vaping, it's like a never ending smoke, unless you need to drip or charge or something. When I used to take smoke breaks I could say I'll go have a cig or two. Can't really do that with vaping. It's like, I'll go vape for 5 minutes or 10 minutes.

AzPlumber · « **Reply #72 on:** July 29, 2014, 05:29:36 PM »

Posting this here because it's my first post and I can't start new threads (long time member just read a lot).

Earlier today I bought 2 MNKE IMR 118650 batteries from a local vendor and after returning home I put a meter on them. One of them was at 1.63v and the other at 1.48. I returned to the store and the guy headed to the back and a few minutes later brought me two different batteries that are at much better voltages. The guy said he would try to revive the two I brought back. My question to you battery gurus is will these batteries be okay if someone is able to charge them back up and if so should they be sold as new? It is my understanding that at the very least the life of them has been shortened.

BOFH · « **Reply #73 on:** July 30, 2014, 05:02:31 AM »

IM pretty sure those battery's should be never be used again if the voltage has dropped that low.

They are almost certainly permanently damaged and possibly dangerous.

CraigHB · « **Reply #74 on:** July 30, 2014, 12:40:55 PM »

Yes, they are damaged to the point of being unsafe. The lowest safe discharge I've seen on a Li-Ion battery is the HE2 from LG at 2.0V. The Sony's are 2.5V I believe. I expect the monkey batteries are 2.5V as well.

There should actually be no way that can happen to a new battery. They come from the factory at 3.80V. The only way that can happen is if the cell is defective and self-discharging or if the battery had been shorted in transit somehow. Either way that's a sign of a hazardous battery.

Good thing you checked and didn't just throw them on the charger.

AzPlumber · « **Reply #75 on:** July 30, 2014, 03:28:31 PM »

Thanks for the replies, I was pretty sure those batteries were damaged and can't believe they would try to revive them. I tend to check voltage on my batteries often and have decent idea of what is go and no go.

CraigHB · « **Reply #76 on:** July 30, 2014, 04:55:14 PM »

Oh, welcome to the forum BTW