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Breaktru Forum  |  eCigarette Forum  |  Battery  |  Topic: LI poly vs LI ION
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Offline LukeTheDuke

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LI poly vs LI ION
« on: January 17, 2013, 05:48:39 AM »
hey guys,

modding bug has bit me again, been out of the soldering game for a good while since my daughter was born,

getting some things together to build me 2 mega mah battery mods (hopefully)

was blown away by some of daves and craigs newest mods all i can say is O M G! lol  ;bow;

anyhoot to keep this request short,

whats the benefits to using these 20C li poly versus an cghr panny?
what ive seen about li po batts is they are unstable and well "dangerous"  :Thinking:

ive never had any exp with li po, or soldered them, iam trying to watch good videos on how to easily and safely solder the tabs,
iam worried my skills will be unmatched to the degree of difficulty of soldering them tabs

i wanted to some how do 2 5000mah 20C li po in series, or parallel depending on what controller i choose to go with,
 with an added USB charger (that question well come later  :D)

so guys, whats the deal with going li po? better? good? not worth the maybe hassle?

if its safe and doable id like to go li po 

thank youse fir your time all

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 02:01:49 PM »
LiPos are no more hazardous than an unprotected LiCo cell (round ICR cell).  If you use them, you need to realize they are not protected and you need to add protection.  In that case, they are no more risk than a protected ICR cell. 

The high drain LiPo cells get a bad rap from their typical application which is scale models.  They are typically run without over-load protection and are typically charged at very high rates.  The guys do blow them up sometimes.  However, LiPo cells are also commonly used in phones and other consumer devices.

The main advantage of a LiPo over a round cell is the shape.  Also, the high drain ones are best at delivering high outputs (lowest voltage sag under load).  The disadvantage is the high drain ones are the ones we need for our application and they have the lowest energy density, in other words, they require more volume for the same mAh rating.

Oh, I just noticed the question about soldering.  DO NOT solder LiPo cells if you are not experienced with electronics soldering and do not have a good variable temperature soldering station.  Soldering LiPos is the most hazardous thing you can do with them if you don't know what you are doing.  If you want to do this, get good a soldering station and practice with it beforehand.  Set your iron at 600F maximum.


« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 02:19:34 PM by CraigHB »

Offline LukeTheDuke

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2013, 02:58:39 AM »
thank youse for the insight craig!

ive had some experiance building mods, i.e. a few REV2 madvapes boards, and numerous puck style mods, not much i know but i think i can manage as you stated practice makes you better next time...

so theres no confusion, you DO NOT solder wires to batt tabs? from what ive been reading the proccesses are pretty straight forward

scuff the tab, apply flux (if needed) and solder wire to tab, and cool, all being extremely fast as, as you stated HEAT is the main concern for battery failure in the process of wiring the tab, also depending on the battery the tabs may be so close they can touch and short out, which well cause a batt fire etc,

IS this info ive been reading up correct? am i on the right learning the curve path here?

i ask as i was just pondering, a couple things... if the tabs are wide enough, why not drill or punch a hole in them and wire through the hole then MAYBE solder... or even "dumber" why not use "roach clips" and no solder... lol yes my mind wanders into "possibilities"

i wish there was a great way to not solder the tabs an yet still make a solid connection, like a connector that crimps to the tabs...

also looks like a good solder station you suggested maybe in order, i usually get a NEW 30Watt plain jane iron everytime i go to building a mod i start with a new iron, dunno why i just do... thank you for that suggestion

i know these things iam throwing out there are a long long shot as ive never held one of these things in my hand and only seen these cells and tabs in pics online,

i have no intention of being unsafe, or going over my limits, but i want ta learn and get it done right if i do go li po, wish i could find a good "how to" li po cells here at breaktru or else where good info on building li po packs or tabbing is pretty thin
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 03:02:20 AM by LukeTheDuke »

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2013, 05:24:41 AM »
You can solder whatever you want to the LiPo tabs, even another tab.

You're absolutely correct.  The issue is the level of heat and secondly the duration.  You don't want to exceed either.  Too much for a short time or acceptable heat for too long of a time can damage the cell. 

I didn't mean to sound harsh but a lot of people jump into mod building with zero soldering experience.  It sounds like you've got some under your belt and you have the idea down.  It's just I picture some noob with a soldering pencil getting blasted in the face with an exploding LiPo because he got the bright idea to use one without a clue how to do it safely.

Oh, I've thought in terms of a screw mount on the tabs to make the cell more replaceable.  I would have done it, but I don't have the height clearance in my enclosure.  Brass solders very nicely so a brass stud would be easy to install into a PCB thru-hole.  If a tightly fitting slot is cut into the tabs, voila, screw mount terminals. 


« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 05:46:05 AM by CraigHB »

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2013, 05:38:00 AM »

It's just I picture some noob with a soldering pencil getting blasted in the face with an exploding LiPo because he got the bright idea to use one without a clue how to do it safely.


I totally agree   :yes"

Offline LukeTheDuke

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2013, 05:52:11 AM »
No no youse dont sounds harsh at all, im here ta learn, and this place has the best of them ta learns from

I merely stated what exp I have ta give youse an idea of what exp I have under me belt, believe me I wanna build or have one,of daves mcu mods, but I kno that kind of programming and level is wayWAY above my pay grade lolol

So I DO have the idea pretty much down then? Iam not over thinking it too much? Just follow the process and take the extra procautions, like Pyrex dish for cool down (nonflammable tray) and a fire extinguisher would be good...
Should I order some kind of clip system so I can just clip the battery to the controller instead of soldering the wires a second time to tie the Controller to the batt
A 30watt iron is just a bad idea?... Or doable?

Thanks again for all your advises,

Offline LukeTheDuke

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 05:58:07 AM »

Oh, I've thought in terms of a screw mount on the tabs to make the cell more replaceable.  I would have done it, but I don't have the height clearance in my enclosure.  Brass solders very nicely so a brass stud would be easy to install into a PCB thru-hole.  If a tightly fitting slot is cut into the tabs, voila, screw mount terminals.

Thats what iam talkin about, what about a brass washer to make an even more solid connection when screwed down...

Offline LukeTheDuke

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 06:09:23 AM »
I know it may depend on battery   characteristics but how many cycles could you expect from a 20C lipo? And is 20C the going rate for what you/we are building? No need to go higher?


Offline CraigHB

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 03:09:42 PM »
The LiPos are probably about the same as the IMR cells as far as cycle life, around 50% loss after 500 cycles.  However, they seem to hold up a little better than that for me.  I've probably got 500 cycles on my oldest build and it's only down about 20% in charge capacity.   

Ideal C rate depends on the size of the cell you are using.  If using a 1000mAh cell, a 20C rating would provide a limit of 20A.  If using a larger cell, such as 2000mAh, a 10C rating would provide a 20A limit.  The C rating is actually an important one.  The lower the C rating, the higher the energy density so you don't want to go higher than you need to.  However, unless you are getting a special order (which you can actually get from China without spending a huge amount), you don't have that many options.  Pretty much 20C is it.

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 03:24:51 PM »
Oh, I'm saying this in a another post because it merits one.

To all those that have 30W soldering pencils or any other wattage.  Grap them all right now.  Walk out to your trash bin.  Drop them in.  Walk away.  Now go online and buy yourself a variable temperature soldering station.  They're not that expensive, less than $100.

YOU CAN NOT SOLDER ELECTRONICS WELL WITH A PENCIL.

They're fine for making stained glass and burning designs in leather, but that's about it.

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 03:43:11 PM »
Oh, I'm saying this in a another post because it merits one.

To all those that have 30W soldering pencils or any other wattage.  Grab them all right now.  Walk out to your trash bin.  Drop them in.  Walk away.  Now go online and buy yourself a variable temperature soldering station.  They're not that expensive, less than $100.

YOU CAN NOT SOLDER ELECTRONICS WELL WITH A PENCIL.

They're fine for making stained glass and burning designs in leather, but that's about it.

Yes... listen to Craig.. He da man.  :yes" Dump those useless irons... and while your out by the trash, throw in your 4 dollar DMMs  :laughing2:

Offline CraigHB

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 03:54:59 PM »
Yep, those too, but that's a whole other rant.  Let me just say I have a meter that costs about $400.

Offline LukeTheDuke

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2013, 02:10:22 AM »
not to stray away too much,

but can youse guys please recommend a good soldering unit?

preferably within a 50$-80$ budget? lol my wifes gonna kill me lol i can see it now, 100$ for a solderiron?!?! WTH! whats wrong with the 4 you have?

lmao yep thats the way thatll go down  :laughing:

id like a decent unit, all the ones i see round town have mixed reviews, e.i. radioshackhack

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2013, 02:18:29 AM »
Hakko FX888

http://www.hmcelectronics.com/product/Hakko/FX888

Weller WES51

http://www.hmcelectronics.com/product/Weller/WES51

The Hakko is probably a nicer unit, but the tips and other replacement parts are more widely available for the Weller.

Offline redwolfe

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2013, 02:24:06 AM »
I was planning on getting myself the HAKKO FX888 very soon, but seeing the Weller is $15 less (than on SparkFun.com) I am going to go for that one instead. That's one of the reasons I am delaying my mod build is until I get a good solder station.


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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2013, 02:34:22 AM »
If you want to build mods you need the right equipment.  It's just the cost of your hobby.  There's much more expensive hobbies out there.  A soldering station is handy anyway.  There's lots of things you may need to solder besides mod parts.

Offline LukeTheDuke

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2013, 08:13:51 PM »
Much thanks fir the links! :thankyou:

on a side note, why couldnt one take a voltage regulator and somehow in corporate it into a cheapo solder pencil? Making it a variable watt/heat

Lmao u see the crap my mind comes up with?! Lol

But really is possible right?, maybe viable or fesable, but could work

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2013, 01:16:38 PM »
You could use a dimmer switch on one and calibrate it with a good temperature meter.  However, it's not just the variable temperature that's important.  A soldering station provides the high quality tips you need to solder well.  A heavy nickel alloy plate is required on the tip.  Pencils come with really crappy tips that are not properly plated for electronics soldering.  Also, the station provides the correct tip cleaning utensil(s).  Using abrasives to clean the tip will ruin it because it damages the plating.  The station offers a range of quick change tip sizes and you need the right size for what you are soldering.  For PCB work, you want a .030" chisel tip and for the really small PCB stuff, a .015" conical tip.

Offline LukeTheDuke

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2013, 01:22:52 PM »
Lol so thats why them tips on my 3$ pencil only lasted one units worth of soldering... Man I wrecked those things... I was confused as why it was happening after watchin sone video with a guy stating his tips have lasted 3+ years

Ha! You sir have talked me outta then shoddy pencils


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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2013, 01:41:56 PM »
I get about a 1/4 lb of .015" solder (a quarter of a 1lb roll) before I start losing the plating on a tip and have to replace it.  Most of my soldering is really small SMD stuff so I exclusively use the .015" conical tip.  It depends on how much soldering I'm doing, but I opened a fresh 1lb roll of solder about 6 months ago and it's almost gone.  That's a lot of soldering though.  I've probably assembled 10 mod PCBs in that time.  Not all of them end up in mods.  Some of them are ones I use only for testing hardware changes. 

The Hakko unit has several cleaning utensils and the Weller unit only has the wet sponge.  The Hakko has a flux saturated roll of brass ribbon.  I haven't used that type of cleaning utensil myself.  The sponge is easiest on the tip plating abrasively, but it also temperature shocks it.  Not sure which is better.  Weller obviously thinks the wet sponge is better.

Offline LukeTheDuke

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2013, 04:53:04 PM »
was looking into this unit, i dunno what ta think, what would be your raw thoughts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATTEN-SOLDERING-STATION-AT938D-60W-Thermo-control-NEW-/160784734820?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256f845a64

its in my range, 1year warr, and is sold out all the time on spark fun(though this model is digital) which i dont think id like since analog maybe more realable

any hoot...

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2013, 02:25:54 PM »
"Negative" would be my thoughts.  Aside from the quaility issue of a cheap Chinese no-name brand, how are you going to get tips for it?  I put up a link where you can get the Hakko unit for $75.  Can't do much better than that.

Offline LukeTheDuke

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2013, 03:58:08 AM »
I read that it users the same tips as the hakko, and the branded hakko tips!.pretty cool butt... forget that! 75! Is in my price range! Hell yeah! Thank you thank you thank you,

I hope that isn't just a sale, my car just took a dump on me -;(  #14 fuse keeps blowing... Figures it would be an electrical issue, with all the mod dreams and planning, now I gotta wiring issue in my car #can't catch a break

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2013, 10:59:04 PM »
Yesterday I ordered the Hakko FX888 and I found out why it might be on sale at HMC Electronics. It's beeing discontinued and replaced by the FX888-D which is the digital version. The digital version is about $20 more than the anolog one.

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2014, 01:33:25 PM »
Can 2 LiPo 20c 1200mah in parallel, be used in anything other than a regulated  I.E  a mech or semi mech?

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2014, 07:45:16 PM »
Can 2 LiPo 20c 1200mah in parallel, be used in anything other than a regulated  I.E  a mech or semi mech?

Sure. Just use fuses for protection.

Formula:   (C-Rating) X  (AH) = Maximum Constant Amp Draw
20c x 2.4 (2400mah) = 48 Amps

Max battery voltage using a 0.5 ohm coil: 4.2v / 0.5 ohms = 8.4 Amps
Max battery voltage using a 0.2 ohm coil: 4.2v / 0.2 ohms = 21 Amps

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2014, 08:21:09 PM »
Sure. Just use fuses for protection.

Formula:   (C-Rating) X  (AH) = Maximum Constant Amp Draw
20c x 2.4 (2400mah) = 48 Amps

Max battery voltage using a 0.5 ohm coil: 4.2v / 0.5 ohms = 8.4 Amps
Max battery voltage using a 0.2 ohm coil: 4.2v / 0.2 ohms = 21 Amps

Thanx Breaktru very helpful

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2014, 05:26:01 PM »
Sure. Just use fuses for protection.

Formula:   (C-Rating) X  (AH) = Maximum Constant Amp Draw
20c x 2.4 (2400mah) = 48 Amps

Max battery voltage using a 0.5 ohm coil: 4.2v / 0.5 ohms = 8.4 Amps
Max battery voltage using a 0.2 ohm coil: 4.2v / 0.2 ohms = 21 Amps

Hey breaktru just had another question on chooseing the right fuse for the job. just went to digikey and saw a whole bunch of ptc resettables just dont know which ones to get I.E. hold current trip current. hold current would be what it can handle before triping and trip current would be alittle higher than hold correct? please help dont want to blow my brother up...lol  I am building a box mech and gonna have 2 18650' in parallel direct wired batt to switch to 510. he sub ohms so protection for low resistance is key. so it would be typically a 4200mah box. i just dont have formula for li-ion batts

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2014, 06:57:53 PM »
What is your "C" rating on your 18650? Previously you said Li-Po 20C.
How low of a resistance is his sub-ohm?

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2014, 07:06:53 PM »
What is your "C" rating on your 18650? Previously you said Li-Po 20C.
How low of a resistance is his sub-ohm?

privious was something different...they are sont vtc4's not sure of crating 30a ...he tends to go to .2

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2014, 08:06:04 PM »
I was curious if the battery could supply enough amperage. That's why I asked about the C rating. Being that they are the vtc4's you will have no problem.
Max battery voltage using a 0.2 ohm coil: 4.2v / 0.2 ohms = 21 Amps

These are 6A hold each. Parallel 2 for each battery = 24A / 4 PTC fuses

RGEF600-2
0.010 ~ 0.019 Ohm
3.3 sec trip time

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2014, 08:17:35 PM »
I thank you my friend. I must have had a brain fart I completely forgot about wiring them in parallel..see thats why I love forums

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2014, 10:26:56 PM »
breaktru the max current is measured using full mah rating IE 2-1200mah in parallel =2400 mah  c-rating x ah = max constant amps right. 

*Edit* So a pair of 1500mah lipos @15c would be 45amps max   would be more than enuff for a dna30

« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 10:53:56 PM by DireHavok »

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2014, 06:59:40 AM »
Yes Dire

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Re: LI poly vs LI ION
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2014, 11:04:27 AM »
Please tell me, is mounted to a good box mod 3 batteries in parallel this model?
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__23320__Turnigy_nano_tech_1200mah_1S_15C_Round_Lipo_.html
Thanks!

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