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Breaktru Forum  |  eCigarette Forum  |  Modding  |  Topic: Micro Mod
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Offline methos

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Micro Mod
« on: September 01, 2013, 12:28:13 PM »
Well I did it...lol.  In my mini mod thread I said I wanted to make it even smaller so I had to do it.  I started with a 2 aaa box and a 10440 ultra fire battery (only one I found that size so far)   It took some planing to get everything in there (man is it tight) but I think it turned out good. It vapes nice. Gonna test battery life today (500mah) and see the VPM (Vape Per Mah..lol) it gets  :D

Online Breaktru

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2013, 01:48:04 PM »
Nice down size mod methos. Great work  :rockin smiley:
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 12:46:36 PM by Breaktru »

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2013, 02:21:23 PM »
Very nice and small.  Looks great.

That battery is heavily overloaded which is a fire hazard for Li-Ion cells.  You should be using an IMR cell in there like this which is good for 3.5 Amps drain.

Offline methos

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2013, 07:49:04 PM »
Very nice and small.  Looks great.

That battery is heavily overloaded which is a fire hazard for Li-Ion cells.  You should be using an IMR cell in there like this which is good for 3.5 Amps drain.

Again Craig thank you for the save on the battery. I think I need to start spending more time learning about the battery's

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 04:15:28 PM »
If you're going to build mods, you should do a little research on Li-Ion batteries.  If you don't know what you're doing, you could end up with a fire hazard.  There's tons of info on the net and you can learn what you need to know with an hour or two of Googling.  That's assuming you understand the basics of voltage, current, and resistance.  If you are not versed on that, just do some Googling on Ohm's law, again an hour or two of research.  If you have zero understanding about electricity, start here.  The first two chapters will cover what you need to know.


« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 04:21:19 PM by CraigHB »

Offline methos

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 10:26:12 PM »
The battery part is my weakness. Everything I did in the past was powered by USB or a wall wart. Will be googling tomorrow  :laughing2:

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 11:52:01 PM »
You can try one of these methos...it has a built-in PCB and charging board.



I made my first box mods from these, takes a 10440...which one will come with it.

Joyetech 510 Passthrough


Offline jumper

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 03:01:36 PM »
Great mod Methos! That's about as "mini" as I've seen. About batteries... I just stick with IMR 650s or 350s. My first build was with a 650, but after making one with a 350, I like the size. I think what you're done is really cool. Talk about stealth :)

Keep up the great work!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 03:08:48 PM by jumper »

Offline methos

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 03:23:04 PM »
Thanks jumper, after reading this morning on batt's I think I'm going to use only IMR batt's from now on. That way it's safe and I'm still not limited on size. Also going to look more into lipo cells with protection. I think that will open a whole new world for me  :rockin smiley:

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 05:15:45 PM »
IMR cells are pretty safe, though not 100%.  If you want to make them safe as possible add a fuse, but even without one, they are reasonably safe cells.

The LiPos are nice because they have excellent power delivery, even better than an IMR cell.  However, these are the least safe cells since unlike the round cells, they do not have a "PTC" to protect from contact to contact short circuits.  You can use a protection PCB or you can add a fuse to make them fairly safe.  When using a properly rated fuse, you should be adequately covered.  The disadvantage with a LiPo is they have the lowest energy density between the three so it takes more space for the same charge capacity.

Be careful about puncturing LiPo cells since they do nasty things when that happens.  Since they don't have a hard shell like a round cell, they are vulnerable.  Make sure your enclosure and mounts fully protect the cell from physical damage.

The standard Lithium Cobalt ICR round cells (LiCo) are nice because they have considerably higher charge capacity than an IMR cell, but they are not as safe so you need to take precautions with those.  They are the least efficient of the three types so they're not as good for heavy loading.  It's possible to safely use them with a fuse if they are unprotected, but be more careful about making sure the fuse does not allow an overload to occur.  These cells are more volatile than IMR cells, pretty much the same as LiPos.  Though they do have a PTC that adds a level of protection over a LiPo.

Oh, there's also the hybrid ICR/IMR from Panasonic.  It offers higher charge capacity like an ICR cell and higher safety and better power delivery like an IMR cell.  This is a great cell for more moderate resistances (above an Ohm) and VV or VW mods.  The model is NCR18650PD and it's probably the best general purpose cell out there, IMO.  It's a pretty safe cell, but best to use a fuse with it.


« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 05:48:30 PM by CraigHB »

Offline methos

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 10:12:23 PM »
Great post Craig (as always) I have 2 of those here now and ordered 4 more from Fasttech today. That's gonna be the battery I use in all my mods that use 19650's.  For my KTS+ (also on the way from Fasttech) I was gonna use eather the AW or the Panasonic CGR18650CH with a protection fuse. I get mixed
Info around here on those 50/50. The guys that are useing sub ohms are useing the AW but I don't even want to think about running one that hard... LoL

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2013, 04:13:49 AM »
The Panasonic CGR18650CH has been superceded by the NCR18650PD.  The specs are the same aside from the higher charge capacity for the NCR18650PD.  It's a better cell.

The 1600mAh AW IMR and the Sony US18650VTC3 are the best batteries for sub-ohm coils because they have the best power delivery.  They have very high drain limits with 30 Amps for the Sony 18650 and 24 Amps for the AW IMR 1600mAh.  It has to be the 1600 mAh AW IMR cell because the 2000mAh AW IMR cell has only a 10A drain limit.  However, you give up charge capacity for the higher efficiency and higher drain limit.  The NCR18650PD has almost double the run time.

It comes down to internal battery resistance which is 12 mOhms for the Sony battery and 20 mOms for the 1600mAh AW IMR battery.  The lower the internal resistance of the battery, the less voltage drops under load.  Because lower resistance makes less heat, drain limits are higher.  In comparison the Panasonic NCR18650PD has about 50 mOhms and a typical ICR18650 has about 80 mOhms.  A 2200mAh 20C LiPo has about 6 mOhms internal resistance.

One thing to mention is that with some of the step down converter modules like the Murata OKR and TI PTR, they do offer over-current protection so you don't need to be as concerned with a fuse using those.  However, they do not offer reverse polarity protection so a fuse is still recommend.  If the cells are hard mounted and can not be installed backwards then you can neglect the fuse.  That's assuming the cell is within load tolerance when the module hits its current limit.

More advanced modules like the DNA20 offer full protection for the battery so a fuse is not needed with those.  But again, you need to verify the battery can handle the maximum load.

Offline methos

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2013, 06:59:23 AM »
Thanks again Craig. That was great info!

Offline jumper

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 11:31:31 AM »
Thanks for the info from me too, Craig. Have a question though. Would any brand 1600mah AW IMR battery work for delivering a little more power? I'm using Efest AW IMR batteries. If I just went to 1600mah versions, would that do the trick? Although... this might not apply with me using 350s.

Also have one more question: I've heard about sub-ohm coils but not sure I understand. Are people referring to ohms being less that 1ohm or talking about the ohms being less that 2?

thanks.

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 03:53:16 PM »
Sub-ohm atomizers are atomizers less than 1 Ohm.  Sounds extreme, but people use them a lot with mechs to get high power out of the atomizer.  They either use one coil with a resistance under an Ohm or multiple coils to achieve a combined resistance under an Ohm.

An IMR 18350 is going to be the best you can do in terms of drain limit for that size cell.  Those are 8C cells which is the highest available in an 18350.  The eFest batteries are okay for a cheap Chinese battery.  They're not great, but they're not horrible either.  They're at least a lot better than the batteries with "fire" in the name. 

The 15C and 20C 18650s (AW IMR 1600mAh and Sony US18650VTC3) only offer a benefit for mechs running sub-ohm coils.  If you are using a variable output mod, a cell with a 10A drain is more than adequate.  The IMR 18350s are good for 6A drain which is again adequate for a variable output mod.  The only time the big drain 18650s are a benefit is when using a sub-ohm coil. 

Those big drain 18650s do provide less voltage sag under load, but you trade off a lot of run time.  With a variable output mod you wouldn't know the difference since the mod regulates output.  You would be giving up a lot of run time for no reason.  If you are using a mech mod with a more standard resistance then you would see a slight improvement in atomizer performance with one, but again it's not going to be worth giving up the run time.

Offline jumper

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2013, 05:47:57 PM »
Thanks Craig. Sub ohm attys are something I haven't tried yet. Not sure if I've ever seen one for sale. Most of mine for my mod are 1.8ohm. It would be interesting to see what a sub ohm would be like. I know my batteries are not the best, but I have about 5 of the 350s so there are always 3 or 4 charged up in case I go somewhere.

I understand now about the batteries and the sub ohm coils now. Didn't get it really until I started writing this and looking at what you wrote again. I have a Vamo but don't use it much now that I'm making my own. I just use lower ohm coils and it seems to work out great.

appreciate all the help and info

Offline methos

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2013, 06:59:34 PM »
I can't see why people use sub ohm. I've had a few opportunities to try sub ohm devices and don't care for the way it hits (way to hot for me)  I run my RBA between 1.2 & 1.4 and it works fine. I can see what you mean by the trade off. I'll just keep with the Panasonic battery's I've been useing. They work just fine.  On my small mods I know it's time to spring for better battery's for safety. 
Now that I've done the small stuff it's time to move up to the big toys LoL. I have a few things in the works that I've been neglecting. Time to play  :thumbsup:

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2013, 10:49:10 PM »
The Panasonic CGR18650CH has been superceded by the NCR18650PD.  The specs are the same aside from the higher charge capacity for the NCR18650PD.  It's a better cell.

I've seen alot of claims CHB, but I've yet to see proof.

Got a graph showing the PD up against the CH?

I also haven't seen any data showing that the PD has the same heat-layer of the CH?

Chemistry hasn't been verified either, or rather....haven't seen any proof yet.

Just because they're both a 10A drain doesn't mean that the PD won't explode.

At least we know that the CH....won't.

The NCR series is total CRAP!

The NCR/A & B are two of the worst, under-performing cells for vaping.....and the CH blows them both away!



This is a graph of the NCR/A up against a CGR/CH....both cells were brand new.

You can clearly see that the NCR/A is useless for vaping after 3.2V, but costs 3 times more than a CGR/CH.

The CGR/CH holds it's voltage higher for longer period of time....AND it capacity isn't over-rated.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 01:01:22 AM by timesarerough »

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2013, 03:06:59 PM »
I agree the NCR18650, NCR18650A, and NCR18650B Panasonic ICR cells are not ideal cells for an e-cig.  As you pointed out, they have a steep discharge curve and require a terminal discharge voltage of 2.7V to get the full capacity out of them. 

The Panasonic ICR cells are unusual in that they require a lower voltage to get the full capacity out of them.  The steep discharge curve causes problems both for mech mods and advanced mods.  Advanced mods are designed for a cell fully discharged at an open circuit voltage of 3.2 Volts which is a good terminal voltage for most cells.

With one of the Panasonic ICR cells, you end up with a good portion of the charge capacity trapped in the cell since the mod will not discharge it to the limit.  That makes the useable capacity much lower.  They're no good in the mechs for a similar reason, you won't get the full capacity out of them.

Although the part number is similar for the NCR18650PD, it's not an ICR cell.  It uses the same chemistry as the CGR18650CH.  The discharge curve is similar to the CGR18650CH except its wider with the higher capacity.

I can't vouch for the safety since I've never done torture tests on either, but in general, Panasonic cells are advertised as the safest cells available.  I'd be surprised if the NCR18650PD is not as safe as the CGR18650CH.  I can't say for sure, but just that it has the Panasonic name is good enough for me.

It's all rather moot anyway since the CGR18650CH has been superceded by the NCR18650PD.  Once all stocks of the CGR18650CH are depleted, it will no longer be available.


« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 03:21:18 PM by CraigHB »

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2013, 08:20:57 PM »
I still see claims of the PD being the same chemistry.....but no proof yet.  :no:

Do you have a link showing that the PD is in fact the same as the CH?

I'd like to see if for myself.

Also too, most vaper's have stocked up on CH's...which should last them quite a long time...and by the time they're dead, the industry will probably come out with an even better cell than what's available now.

And, there's still roughly a million or so cells still in stocks in Hong Kong.

So they're not gonna be extinct anytime in the near future, if you have the right connections.  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 08:26:27 PM by timesarerough »

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2013, 03:36:27 PM »
True, I'm sure there will be an least one more iteration before stocks are depleted.  Though I wasn't aware there was ~that~ much stock.

I can't seem to find any technical data on the chemistry either.  I've seen sellers state it's the hybrid type so now I don't know, maybe not.  Need to find out.  Panasonic is not being forthcoming at all with the data sheet on that one.

In any case, here's some good bench test data on it.  The discharge curves look pretty good especially considering there's some additional drop from the protection PCB added to that rebrand.

Oh, BTW, on the battery review website you can do a comparison of the curves, go to the comparator here.

Put the "Enerpower+ 18650 2900mAh 3C (Blue)" on one side and the "Callies Kustoms 2250mAh (Grey)" on the other.  The CGR18650CH curves are a little nicer, but the NCR18650PD curves are good enough to get the most out of the battery.  Also the protection PCB is going to introduce some drop so the curve can be bumped up a little bit for an unprotected one.

If you want to see a battery that kicks ass on the both of them, call up the "LG 18650 D1 3000mAh (Pink) 4.35V"


« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 04:11:30 PM by CraigHB »

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2013, 04:31:39 PM »
Great find on the Battery comparator Craig. Thank you
This would be a good link to have in the Battery category

Offline timesarerough

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2013, 07:58:56 AM »
If you want to see a battery that kicks ass on the both of them, call up the "LG 18650 D1 3000mAh (Pink) 4.35V"

Yep, I've seen it.

The Budget Light Forum is where the bench test's originate.

Like Candle Power Forum, both sites are flashlight addicts that live, eat, sleep.....well, flashlights and they take testing batteries seriously.

The two best places on the net to get real data and bench tests on cells.

Awesome find on the comparator!  :applaude:  Sweet.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 08:09:50 AM by timesarerough »

Offline CraigHB

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2013, 02:56:47 PM »
Funny thing is we actually load them harder than the flashlight guys so we need the data just as much as they do.  But yeah, they take batteries really seriously.  I'm always going to them for all the battery poop.  They know their batteries.

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Re: Micro Mod
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2013, 05:56:37 PM »
Nice work methos  :beer-toast:

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