The Spark-O-Matic - Wire Arc Welding for coil making

[MidnighToker]

Good to see you participating. We will try to get Midnight to get it down pat. Hey Toker, can you at least weld Nichrome to Nichrome or Kanthal to Kanthal as a test?

Haven't tried that.

Gonna redo one of the test units to 340....wait...how the hell do you hit 340 with 80's and 120's? (at least I THINK they're alll 80s and 120s) 200, 240, 280, 320, 360.....

Might have to wait until tomorrow unfortunately.   One daughter is having a birthday sleepover and I am (thankfully) taking the other to a concert.

[urquidezj]

What concert you going to MT? One Direction?

[MidnighToker]

What concert you going to MT? One Direction?

Oh HELL no!!!!  I got dragged to friggin Demi Lovato that she won tickets to about 3 years ago (was still using my original 510 there ).  Thankfully her taste in music has changed.  Going to see Of Mice & Men.  Not a huge fan of post-hardcore (aka Screamo) but it's a hell of a lot better than that other crap.   

[Breaktru]

Haven't tried that.

Gonna redo one of the test units to 340....wait...how the hell do you hit 340 with 80's and 120's? (at least I THINK they're alll 80s and 120s) 200, 240, 280, 320, 360.....

Might have to wait until tomorrow unfortunately.   One daughter is having a birthday sleepover and I am (thankfully) taking the other to a concert.

I had some w/ 100uF. So used (2) 120uF + (1) 100uF. Use (3)120uF's for 360uF or (2) 120uF + (1) 80uF for 320uF. It's close enough.

[Papa Hoyt]

Got my setup and testing done on the proto layout, now time to shorten wires and stuff into a project box.

I am getting great welds with awesome linear hold but once I start wrapping the wire around wick the torsion breaks the weld on one or both sides. any tips? maybe a touch to hot?

[Breaktru]

Got my setup and testing done on the proto layout, now time to shorten wires and stuff into a project box.

I am getting great welds with awesome linear hold but once I start wrapping the wire around wick the torsion breaks the weld on one or both sides. any tips? maybe a touch to hot?

Is it the welds or is the wire breaking before the weld. If the welds, yes maybe ONE volt higher.

I experienced a break or two during wrapping on the soft silver. I realized during wrapping the silver was being bent a bit each turn around my mesh which caused the wire to snap off at the beginning of the weld. Silver may have softened further due to welding temp.
I now wrap by NOT tugging on the silver. I try to only handle it by the resistance wire.

[MidnighToker]

Have been running 320 or 360 on test units.  Kanthal to kanthal holds decent.  The silver to kanthal seems to weld fine, but just like Papa said, they welds just won't hold.  I haven't even tried to wrap any coils because just the test pulls are weak enough that I know they will break as soon as I finish a coil :/

Just ordered some nickel wire so will see if that does any better (so Urq can get off my ass LOL)

[urquidezj]

Hey man I hooked u up with a link for nickel wire! Hehe

[Breaktru]

Have been running 320 or 360 on test units.  Kanthal to kanthal holds decent.  The silver to kanthal seems to weld fine, but just like Papa said, they welds just won't hold.  I haven't even tried to wrap any coils because just the test pulls are weak enough that I know they will break as soon as I finish a coil :/

Just ordered some nickel wire so will see if that does any better (so Urq can get off my ass LOL)

Try coming up a volt. Took awhile for me to find the perfect voltage. Also, before I found the right voltage I tried spot welding the tip of a copper strand to the sides of the two adjacent wires for extra holding. That reinforced the weld. Sort of like a welding rod in Arc Welding.

[Breaktru]

Hey man I hooked u up with a link for nickel wire! Hehe

Haven't tried nickel yet. How's that working out?
I've used a copper strand that worked. Had to lower the voltage a little bit.

[urquidezj]

I haven't personally tried it but since its not as soft and brittle as silver wire, which can break while doing the twist method, I imagine it will make a stronger bond. Being it won't "melt" under I high bolted spark.
This is just a theory in my head though,
I notice no difference in hit between the two tbh

[Papa Hoyt]

I am getting strong welds with 30AWG K A-1 and 30AWG nickel wire and I can yank them away from each other and they hold but the wrapping applies torsion to the weld point and that is when I experience failures.

Have not found a good V for silver yet the silver seems to melt away or burn right off at 75V area. will practice more this week and see what I find out.

[Breaktru]

Winding a coil and avoiding snapping of wires.
The welds are strong. Flexing the wires too many times will break the wire before the weld and NOT the weld.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-YlAcrEyhA

[MidnighToker]

Winding a coil and avoiding snapping of wires.

Are you wrapping that on mesh or just a tool you use to build the coil?

[Breaktru]

Are you wrapping that on mesh or just a tool you use to build the coil?

On Mesh. I didn't take the time to oxidize it. Just did it as a demo

[MidnighToker]

On Mesh. I didn't take the time to oxidize it. Just did it as a demo

LOL...thought it looked a bit shiny.  I see what you're getting at though.  I might have to break down and finally use the "paper clip tool" to wrap a coil and avoid the "torque".  TBH I have not even tried wrapping one of these simply because I didn't have enough faith in the welds.  Think I need to backtrack a bit to where I was getting ALMOST tolerable welds.  Still might hold out for the nickel wire though....guess it depends on my mood later on when everyone normal goes to sleep....

[Breaktru]

VTTV w/ Gary Dibley. Gary makes a Spark-0-Matic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfe5sWp1n68

[bapgood]

VTTV w/ Gary Dibley. Gary makes a Spark-0-Matic

Thats pretty dang cool.....congrats to all the founders

Breaktru....I'm still very jealous of your perfect touch abaility....because for me its hit and miss

On a side note....using my LM2577 unit with 2x4700uF caps and 24v-27v and using my solid base, clamped wires, wand technique I was finally able to get a robust weld of 32g nickel and 30g kanthal. Strong enough that I couldn't pull it apart and then I held the kanthal in some pliers about 1/4" or so from the weld and wrapped the NR around the needle nose pliers pulling pretty gd hard and the weld held........but when I unwrapped and tried again the nickel wire broke at the weld, the weld held but created a rigid bend point 

I don't have any silver to play with....But I'm thinking some 28g or 30g nickel would be pretty robust and may hold up better to handling.

[Breaktru]

Thats pretty dang cool.....congrats to all the founders

Breaktru....I'm still very jealous of your perfect touch abaility....because for me its hit and miss

On a side note....using my LM2577 unit with 2x4700uF caps and 24v-27v and using my solid base, clamped wires, wand technique I was finally able to get a robust weld of 32g nickel and 30g kanthal. Strong enough that I couldn't pull it apart and then I held the kanthal in some pliers about 1/4" or so from the weld and wrapped the NR around the needle nose pliers pulling pretty gd hard and the weld held........but when I unwrapped and tried again the nickel wire broke at the weld, the weld held but created a rigid bend point 

I don't have any silver to play with....But I'm thinking some 28g or 30g nickel would be pretty robust and may hold up better to handling.

Nice bap, sounds like you found your niche welder.
I haven't done anything with my step up converter. Don't know what to call it. The part number on the regulator has been scratched off. Those sly Chinese folks don't want anyone to know what it is.
I have 10' of silver so that should last me a bit. When I get around to it I'll try nickel. Copper strand works fine. Any thing NR will do for the short lengths we need.

[bapgood]

I thought this was interesting and worth sharing...

[Breaktru]

I thought this was interesting and worth sharing...

Good find bap, I have to try that. Put the NR on the positive clip and the Kanthal/Nichrome on the neg clip.

[MidnighToker]

I thought this was interesting and worth sharing...

Awesome find!  Will have to go look at my setups in a bit and see if I have that backwards....might be able to get something usable after all.  Gotta give some copper strands a go too.  Have 2 RBAs that are in desperate need of new coils and have been holding out until I nailed this.

[Breaktru]

It's weird because I was getting good welds doing it backwards. I was using the NR on the Neg clip. Perhaps it will be better welds the right way. 

[Breaktru]

I've been asked several times, how do you light an LED with a single AA battery. The answer is: A Joule Thief.  A White or Blue LED requires a forward voltage of approximately 3.3v yet you can power it with a single AA battery with 0.3v to 1.6v.
The LED is SUPER bright and will light even when the battery is considered "DEAD".
It's a very simple circuit and the parts I had on hand.
A Blue or White LED
2N3904 Transistor or equivalent
1k Resistor (Brown-Black-Red)
Ferrite Toroid core, taken from an old PC power supply. Wires were removed and rewound as shown below.
2 Thin wire, two colors. I used 28ga
See attached photos. (You must be logged on to see photos.)

[jbs]

Out of pure curiosity.
Would it be possible to use Spark-O-Matic for welding lipo battery tabs or it just does not have enough 'kick' in it?

[Breaktru]

Out of pure curiosity.
Would it be possible to use Spark-O-Matic for welding lipo battery tabs or it just does not have enough 'kick' in it?

I tried w/ the voltage cranked to 340 volts using a piece of roofing flashing and two nails as probes. It did not fully go thru the flashing. Perhaps with the right material. The flashing was too thick.

[jbs]

I don't know much about electronics and i am not aware of what that disposable camera pcb is capable of. So anything i am going to say is only an assumption.

The pcb does have a trigger to release the flash. If it works as i think it does than it could be used as a trigger for welding.
The question is, is it just a matter of bigger caps and voltage to weld anything thicker than kanthal and silver wire.
And is the pcb capable of charging bigger caps?

I have just seen a diy cap arc welder but the guy was using 2 x 1F caps and 15volts transformer to charge them.
I am by no means desperate or in need to build such thing but i have to admit that having handy dandy lipo tab, coil welder wold be awesome .

Cheers

[Breaktru]

I don't know much about electronics and i am not aware of what that disposable camera pcb is capable of. So anything i am going to say is only an assumption.

The pcb does have a trigger to release the flash. If it works as i think it does than it could be used as a trigger for welding.
The question is, is it just a matter of bigger caps and voltage to weld anything thicker than kanthal and silver wire.
And is the pcb capable of charging bigger caps?

I have just seen a diy cap arc welder but the guy was using 2 x 1F caps and 15volts transformer to charge them.
I am by no means desperate or in need to build such thing but i have to admit that having handy dandy lipo tab, coil welder wold be awesome .

Cheers

The higher the voltage, the lower the Cap value. I've seen tab welders w/ 1 Farad and 12v.
I haven't tried a fire button but I imagine using the fire button with the probe leads off the Xeon flash bulb instead of off the cap might work.
If I get some time, I might try it. Still would need the right battery tabs. Found them here: Battery TABS

[CraigHB]

The flash circuit does not deliver enough current.  You need a capacitive discharge welder like this;

http://ledhacks.com/power/battery_tab_welder.htm

I really have no issue soldering the LiPo tabs, can even solder wires on to the round cells.  Still, welding is better since there's very little chance of damaging the battery.

[jbs]

Thanks for the info.

In every day life i have no need of soldering lipos not to mention welding them. I don't solder every day and that's why i stick to el cheapo 30 watt solder iron.
I am aware of your point of view on cheap soldering irons, dmm etc.
I was planing to use lipo instead of well proven aw imr 18490 for my dna 12 mod but the lack of right tool for the job and involved risk simply put me off.

Cheers.

[CraigHB]

I understand.  I would also advise against soldering cells of any kind with one of those cheapo 30W soldering pencils.  It' pretty critical to properly control temperature.  In that case, a capacitive welder would be a better option if you don't have a good soldering station.

If you can happen across one of those big capacitor arrays for car stereos, and you happen to have a car battery charger, you can make a battery tab welder damn near for free, at least a lot cheaper than a good soldering station.

[jbs]

I understand.  I would also advise against soldering cells of any kind with one of those cheapo 30W soldering pencils.  It' pretty critical to properly control temperature.  In that case, a capacitive welder would be a better option if you don't have a good soldering station.

If you can happen across one of those big capacitor arrays for car stereos, and you happen to have a car battery charger, you can make a battery tab welder damn near for free, at least a lot cheaper than a good soldering station.

That was precisely my thinking and i was wishing, it could happen on a... let's say... a... miniature scale 

[MidnighToker]

Haven't checked in for a bit so thought  I throw an update up.

I took a break from this for a while and just got back to it.  Was able to get "usable" welds with 30ga Kanthal and 32 ga nickel NR on a unit using 3 80uf and 1 120uf (360uf total) charged to just over 75 volts.  I have a trickle drain (maybe  volts/sec), most likely from the meter, so I've been trying to charge to around 77-78 to give me a few to line up the wires.

I am still only getting a spot weld at the end of one wire or the other that does not really have much strength.  Not nearly the strength that I am seeing in breaktru's videos.  But this setup was able to get me up and running.  I've been slacking and the coils on my all my RBAs were anywhere between 1 and 4 months old.  I'd just dry burn every 2-3 days or so to keep them going fairly strong.  The wicks were still getting just a wee bit skanky though.  Good thing that I pretty much stick with tobacco based juice mixed with peach/cherry/pina colada sometimes.

[Breaktru]

Haven't checked in for a bit so thought  I throw an update up.

I took a break from this for a while and just got back to it.  Was able to get "usable" welds with 30ga Kanthal and 32 ga nickel NR on a unit using 3 80uf and 1 120uf (360uf total) charged to just over 75 volts.  I have a trickle drain (maybe  volts/sec), most likely from the meter, so I've been trying to charge to around 77-78 to give me a few to line up the wires.

I am still only getting a spot weld at the end of one wire or the other that does not really have much strength.  Not nearly the strength that I am seeing in breaktru's videos.  But this setup was able to get me up and running.  I've been slacking and the coils on my all my RBAs were anywhere between 1 and 4 months old.  I'd just dry burn every 2-3 days or so to keep them going fairly strong.  The wicks were still getting just a wee bit skanky though.  Good thing that I pretty much stick with tobacco based juice mixed with peach/cherry/pina colada sometimes.

Sounds like your welding results are getting better.

I stopped using the silver. The welds were great but the silver is fine .999 which is extremely soft. It would occasional break before the weld and the weld would remain. I switched to copper strands pulled from heavier gauge wire. I used a micrometer to measure for 32ga to 30ga strands that weld pretty good to the 32ga Kanthal.

In the beginning, I found that if the voltage was dropping when I weld, a failed weld would result. When the voltage was stable, a perfect weld was achieved.
Maybe you can try to remove your meter when you hit your voltage mark.

[banshee]

Sounds like your welding results are getting better.

I stopped using the silver. The welds were great but the silver is fine .999 which is extremely soft. It would occasional break before the weld and the weld would remain. I switched to copper strands pulled from heavier gauge wire. I used a micrometer to measure for 32ga to 30ga strands that weld pretty good to the 32ga Kanthal.

In the beginning, I found that if the voltage was dropping when I weld, a failed weld would result. When the voltage was stable, a perfect weld was achieved.
Maybe you can try to remove your meter when you hit your voltage mark.

Good idea, copper strands. Beats buying NR wire.

I tried your suggestion about getting my cheap meter to a 10M input impedance and it worked. I've been getting better welds and the voltage doesn't drop anymore. Input Impedance.
I calculated my cheap meter input impedance using your link, to 1M. So I added 9M of resistance in series to make the total 10M. Now the meter is 10% difference which is easy to use. So if I want 75v, I fire the welder up to 7.5v. Work out great. 

[CraigHB]

I stopped using the silver. The welds were great but the silver is fine .999 which is extremely soft. It would occasional break before the weld and the weld would remain. I switched to copper strands pulled from heavier gauge wire.

I don't get the deal with vendors selling so called non-resistance wire.  Doesn't make much sense to me when you can go down to the local hardware store and buy stranded wire in whatever gauge to get individual strands with the preferred thickness.  It's like 50 cents a foot.  Also, people are making a big deal out of silver wire.  It's only about 5% more conductive than copper.  It does resist corrosion better than copper, but if you're not doing wire wraps with it, doesn't really matter.

[iWrong]

Thank you very much for your great ideas!!!
I only have one question where do you draw the power supply 75V?
Is you have a laboratory power supply unit?

I genuinely apologise for my terrible English

[Jerseybob]

Thank you very much for your great ideas!!!
I only have one question where do you draw the power supply 75V?
Is you have a laboratory power supply unit?

I genuinely apologies for my terrible English

Hi iWrong. Your English is very good 

This thread is for welding with a disposable camera. The camera circuit board puts out over 300 volts. Letting go of the charging button at 75v (V meter placed on the capacitor leads) will get you there.

You may want to look at the 1st post. It has links to key subjects.

[iWrong]

Jerseybob
Thank you! 

Why I did not guessed about it ?
Just because this explains the 4 seconds hold button, really   

Now, I think that it is also possible to use and the old external flash to a camera. If someone can not buy a disposable camera, for example.
In this case necessary to be careful twice because of high voltage at the V-in, of course.

[bapgood]

Aluminum solder paste and a 30w soldering iron might work for lipo tabs. The aluminum solder paste is a god send for some lipo cell tabs, some just seem more solderable than others regardless if pre tinned or not. I'm not sure if a 30w iron will be enough, but the aluminum solder paste drastically reduces then needed heat and time applied to solder lipo cell tabs.

I have never seen lipo cell  tabs welded like the cylindrical lithium cells. Only soldered and a very pita to work with grid crimp.   

[Jerseybob]

Aluminum solder paste and a 30w soldering iron might work for lipo tabs. The aluminum solder paste is a god send for some lipo cell tabs, some just seem more solderable than others regardless if pre tinned or not. I'm not sure if a 30w iron will be enough, but the aluminum solder paste drastically reduces then needed heat and time applied to solder lipo cell tabs.

I have never seen lipo cell  tabs welded like the cylindrical lithium cells. Only soldered and a very pita to work with grid crimp.

HUH? 

[bapgood]

HUH? 

The reply was in reference to some previous discussion about solder/welding lipo tabs

[Jerseybob]

The reply was in reference to some previous discussion about solder/welding lipo tabs

Sorry bap, I should have read back a few posts. My apologies

[CraigHB]

Aluminum solder paste and a 30w soldering iron might work for lipo tabs. The aluminum solder paste is a god send for some lipo cell tabs, some just seem more solderable than others regardless if pre tinned or not. I'm not sure if a 30w iron will be enough, but the aluminum solder paste drastically reduces then needed heat and time applied to solder lipo cell tabs.

I have never seen lipo cell  tabs welded like the cylindrical lithium cells. Only soldered and a very pita to work with grid crimp.

The tabs used on LiPos are typically nickel plated so they solder very nicely with electronics solder.  They do require flux and some roughing up with an abrasive, but after that they solder easily.

If you were to take a LiPo apart, you would find the positive tab is actually welded to the aluminum cathode lead using a spot weld similar to the way tabs are welded to round cells in laptop battery packs.  There should be no reason you could not weld the tabs on a LiPo if required.

[bapgood]

The tabs used on LiPos are typically nickel plated so they solder very nicely with electronics solder.  They do require flux and some roughing up with an abrasive, but after that they solder easily.

If you were to take a LiPo apart, you would find the positive tab is actually welded to the aluminum cathode lead using a spot weld similar to the way tabs are welded to round cells in laptop battery packs.  There should be no reason you could not weld the tabs on a LiPo if required.

You seem to know what you are talking about, but it doesn't match my experience soldering lipo tabs. But I have never tore one apart either, next time one goes up in flames or goes bad maybe I will look closer.

My experience is some cells are very solderable like you say, but others not your life. I now use the aluminum solder paste regardless and now every time is easy as pie.

I have all the stuff to build an 800watt dual pulse capacitive discharge welder. So when I find time to get it put together I will have to try it.

[CraigHB]

They do vary.  I have not soldered a whole heap of different LiPo cells, but of the ones I've done, some are easy while others are not as easy.  One in particular is rather difficult, the 2200mAh hobby LiPo from Hobby King.  Though it's still totally do-able with rosin flux and 60/40 or 63/37 solder.  Just have to give it a good roughing up with ScotchBrite first.

That's awesome you already have the parts for a battery tab welder.  Would love to see the results.

[Papa Hoyt]

For those making a NR/R coil say for an Odysseus, is there no harm in juice contacting the copper? Thought I read a scare post one time about that.

[iWrong]

For those making a NR/R coil say for an Odysseus, is there no harm in juice contacting the copper? Thought I read a scare post one time about that.

Some parts of the any Atty are made of brass. These parts from the contact with the juice is oxidized. Brass is an alloy of copper. I think copper will oxidize faster still.
I don't think that the use of copper in the Odysseus and Penelope would be a good way.

[Breaktru]

For those making a NR/R coil say for an Odysseus, is there no harm in juice contacting the copper? Thought I read a scare post one time about that.

The strands of copper that I am using is not copper in color. It's silver. I assume it is coated or tinned. Not sure what it is. Tin? maybe nickel. The copper is not exposed.

[CraigHB]

When you see shiny silver colored wire, it's nickel plated copper.  Aluminum is a also an excellent conductor (but not as good as copper) so you can sometimes find aluminum electrical wire, but it tends to be the real heavy gauge stuff.  Aluminum is cheaper than copper.

There's a mix of nickel plated and non-plated copper wire out there.  Nickel is similar to chromium in that it is highly resistant to corrosion so the nickel plated stuff is better, but a bit more expensive.  Nickel itself is a good conductor (but not as good as copper or aluminum) and highly resistant to corrosion so it's often used for plating electrical contacts.

304 and 303 stainless are relatively poor conductors.  They have about 1/40 the conductivity of copper.  If you use it for electrical connectivity, you want at least 20 times the cross sectional area of a copper wire or you'll get heavy losses.